Trans Women Should Be Allowed In Women Only Spaces

[KiBob]

I posted a few days ago that I need help arguing a case on the debating website Kialo. Thanks to your suggestions I've got one claim accepted that I was struggling with.

I'm now trying to get a new claim past admins.

As a supporting claim to:

"Allowing anyone who identifies as female into women-only spaces makes those spaces worse for cis women".

I put this:

"Trans women are 6 times more likely to commit a crime and 18 times more likely to commit a violent crime compared to female controls as found by this study In Sweden in 2011". With a link to this study:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Admin have responded:

"Hm, interesting link. However, the results don't differentiate between trans men and trans women, and also state this: "Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989." - so this might be a bit outdated - 30 years is pretty long.
Further up, in the Abstract, under results it also says "Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls."

Can you point me to the exact place where you get your numbers? Thanks!"

Help!

No, you are right - that figure does not count people with a GRC, only people withhout a GRC who have told the prison authorities that they are transgender - so in other words, as you say, self id.

These offenders are mostly living in the prisons of their natal sex (as far as the stats can tell) they are not necessarily being moved based on self ID (although sadly we know this has happened) this is just based on the trans inmates that have self declared themselves transgender and requested a case study.

Those holding GRCs are not counted in the statistics.

Well, if those prison stats are based on people with GRC’s we can throw EarkyWalker’s calculations out of the window:

Btw data shows 125 transpeople in prison out of an estimated 600,000. This is 0.02% of the population.

It’s less than 6,000 who have a GRC and that would make the prison population 2% - way higher than for other men and women.

Is there anything to back up EarlyWalker’s assertion that the majority of trans prisoners are transmen? The complete absence of transmen from the men’s estate would suggest otherwise, as would the fact that almost half of trans prisoners are category A prisoners and that there are no category A women’s prisons. So where are they? If there are only about 7 category A women’s prisoners in the UK then the category A transmen aren’t represented in those statistics and they can’t be recorded in the men’s statistics either because they are not in men’s prisons.

Those holding GRCs are not counted in the statistics.

So what the hell use are the statistics if they exclude people with GRCs - the people who have the strongest legal claim to being transgender?

To everyone harping on on this thread about trans people in prison you're all talking total bollocks because there are trans identified people with or without a GRC who may or may not even be included in the guesstimations. Some trans people go in as "cis".and change their mind during their time in prison. Some go in as trans and change their mind to fit in better inside. Forget the stats. It's all bullshit. It's impossible to include the "gender fluid" for a start.

Of course men who identify as trans commit offences at the same rate as men who don't. There's no fundamental difference between them.

To any person on this thread trying to nit pick statistics and mathematical figures please just answer,
How are men who identify as women different in any way to men who don't and how can we (women) observe the difference?
I have never had any meaningful reply to this question.

Update: An earlier version of this article relied on information contained on the Ministry of Justice website, which wrongly stated that Rye Hill houses "any prisoners". In fact, G4S, which runs the jail, has confirmed that it now has only sex offenders as inmates. We have corrected the article - it now makes clear that “only five of the eight prisons house only sex offenders” (the earlier version referred to “only a few of these prisons house only sex offenders” and contained an erroneous reference to Rye Hill). Fair Play For Women have also asked us to add that in May 2018, a freedom of information response from the Ministry of Justice, indicated that – based on data from the Annual Offender Equalities Report 2016/17 – there were 125 transgender prisoners in UK jails, 100 in male prisons and 25 in female prisons. The MoJ’s response in full can be seen here and are glad to clarify matters. 18/10/18

This is from the Independent. From this, it appears that 80% of the trans prison population is male. And that's if none of the prisoners in the women's prisons were transwomen.

I have no problem with transmen whatsoever, but they are part of the transgender discussusion, they can’t just be ignored. Sorry if that causes you issues or doesn’t fit with your narrative but I won’t just pretend they don’t exist to make you feel better.

You say you don’t have a problem with transmen yet you constantly rely on the assertion that transmen represent the bulk of offenders to support your claim that transwomen are no more violent that women are. And you are happy to admit that transmen are women for the sake of this point.

This is from the Independent. From this, it appears that 80% of the trans prison population is male. And that's if none of the prisoners in the women's prisons were transwomen.

This last part is significant. The figures are for transgender prisoners, not transwomen and transmen. It could be 100% transwomen, 20% of whom are held in the female estate. Given they let Karen White in the bar for entry into the female estate can’t be very high.

The prisoners are certainly not mostly transmen, though, however you interpret it.

Given that they include 27 convictions for rape we can be fairly certain that these crimes at least were not committed by transmen.

It’s really telling that the BBC and TRAs are pushing the ‘we can’t say for certain that transmen didn’t commit these crimes’ line. When transwomen feel threatened they have no solidarity at all with .

As to the ‘what’s the difference between this and saying you don’t want to share a prison with black men or black women’ that’s just moronic.

Black men are men and black women are women. Those are biological facts that go beyond artificial divisions of populations by skin pigment, cosmetic difference facial structure and lactose tolerance.

We segregate prisons by sex. If you think we should open up women’s prison to transwomen why not let other men in too? There’s no reason to separate anything by gender.

If you want to draw a parallel with race ask yourself how the authorities would respond if you demanded the right to serve out your sentence in blackface.

It does, inevitably, boil down to Men are not Women.

Men and women are born with different biology.

No matter what our/their personal style of dress, hair, wellington boots, jewellery, preferences, personality, etc.
It is still true, that women who are the ones who physically gestate and give birth to babies.

QED.

Regardless of the reasons behind certain ethnic groups committing more violent crime, the fact remains that they pose more of a threat to me as an individual.

With this in mind, one can use the same argument that is used against transwoman - i.e. "I shouldn't be incarcerated with somebody who poses a threat to me."

The historical basis behind this increased rates of crime exhibited is not my fault as an individual and surely it is unreasonable for me to suffer the threat of violence because of it.

Francis Crook executive director of the Howard League for Penal Reform "said that she was worried that ‘some men with a history of extreme violence and sexual violence against women have found a new way of exercising aggression towards women’.

‘These men are not transitioning because they like women and want to be a woman, but in order to exert a new kind of control and dominance over women, a sort of infiltration."

source:
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5798945/Trans-women-convicted-men-attack-vulnerable-inmates.html

Claude Knights (safeguarding expert, 15 years as head of Kidscape)
on sex offenders who transition and are afforded the opportunity to change their name and hide their history as a consequence & recent case of "Christopher Noble, 32, transitioned to Christyl Knight while behind bars for keeping a stash of over 4,000 vile pictures and videos of kids as young as six months old"

“Allowing these individuals to hide a secret past is a dangerous practice.”
“Anyone who’s fuelled the vile trade in indecent images of children and therefore contributed to their sexual abuse should not be allowed to change their name.”

Source: www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/3006679/paedophile-jailed-transgender-christyl-knight-christopher-nobile/

Or are you saying that you'd be ok with self-ID if it was proven that the male pattern of violence was down to sociological issues like poverty etc?

ScottCheggJnr I believe that most crime is intra-racial, not inter-racial.

I believe that most crime is intra-racial, not inter-racial.

Maybe, but I remember reading a study from the US which looked at interracial rape. I forgot the exact figures, but in that particular city there had not been one conviction of a white man raping a black female, but there were many instances recorded of the opposite - it was either 300 or 3000 I think.

I have no racial prejudice at all, but there needs to be consistency in the measures we apply to different protected classes.

Within the period the study looked at, that is.

I actually don't think self-ID is a great idea, not least because there are better alternatives. However, using an argument that would be unacceptable when applied to other classes seems a bit disingenuous and is likely what is causing so many people to disregard the GC viewpoint.

ScottCheggJnr
Your blatant racism is getting very familiar from you, and very very tedious.

Apart from that: men are men, and women are women.

If you are in any doubt: then just ask yourself who would be most likely to be in need of pregnancy and childbirth health care,.

ScottCheggJnr that dubious claim is irrelevant, considering it's in regards to black men not black women.

Your blatant racism is getting very familiar from you, and very very tedious.

And here it is again. The diversion tactic.

If you can't answer my original question, then perhaps you'd at least care to explain why it's racist to apply your logic to another protected class to see how it holds up?

Oh, and by the way, what are you doing to help fight the racism displayed by your class seeing that misogyny is apparently the responsibility of all men as a class.

Study: White college women are less likely to to help a black woman at risk of rape

www.google.com/amp/s/www.psypost.org/2017/03/study-white-college-women-less-likely-help-black-woman-risk-rape-48171/amp

Not a diversion, dear little ScottCheggJnr

You are a misogynist and a racist. Your posts prove this.

Can't explain why? Ok then...

You're transphobic then.