Trans Women Should Be Allowed In Women Only Spaces

[KiBob]

I posted a few days ago that I need help arguing a case on the debating website Kialo. Thanks to your suggestions I've got one claim accepted that I was struggling with.

I'm now trying to get a new claim past admins.

As a supporting claim to:

"Allowing anyone who identifies as female into women-only spaces makes those spaces worse for cis women".

I put this:

"Trans women are 6 times more likely to commit a crime and 18 times more likely to commit a violent crime compared to female controls as found by this study In Sweden in 2011". With a link to this study:
journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

Admin have responded:

"Hm, interesting link. However, the results don't differentiate between trans men and trans women, and also state this: "Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989." - so this might be a bit outdated - 30 years is pretty long.
Further up, in the Abstract, under results it also says "Female-to-males, but not male-to-females, had a higher risk for criminal convictions than their respective birth sex controls."

Can you point me to the exact place where you get your numbers? Thanks!"

Help!

Black people commit more crimes because they are more disadvantaged. There is no more difference between black people and white people that there is between people with red hair and black hair. Trans men commit more crimes because they are men. There is a huge amount of difference between men and women because they are innately different at a genetic level.

Plus, its extremely racist to make the comparison. Are you saying black people are genetically different to white people?

Questioning if people should be excluded based on the statistic likliehood of them being dangerous is not phobic, is it?

Men are a risk to me as a woman. I also want privacy from them all, including my father and brothers. NO men in women's spaces no matter what they claim to be, thanks.

Questioning if people should be excluded based on the statistic likliehood of them being dangerous is not phobic, is it?

So why exclude any man from women’s spaces?

Personally, I do believe in innate differences between men and women, in a way that I do not believe in innate differences between black people and white people.

I am quite prepared to believe that any differences in offending rates between black people and white people are down to their standing in society. I cannot find the same justifications between the differing patterns of offending between men and women. It isn't just slightly higher, or slightly lower. It is a completely different profile.

As I said earlier - why not let any man who wants to be in there go in women's spaces, therefore?

Aspie I was responding to nells comment above mine.

Men are a risk to me as a woman. I also want privacy from them all, including my father and brothers. NO men in women's spaces no matter what they claim to be, thanks.

YY. Exactly, Vicky.

And I do find it racist when people infer that there is a similar amount of difference between black and white to male and female.

It is.

I'm still frozen at the point of 1 in 2400 men are serving prison sentences for sexual offences.

Roughly between 4-6% of reported sexual offences end in conviction... If 100% of the reported sexual offences ended in prison sentences, then that brings the number to..... Anyone? I daren't do the maths myself.

And that's just the reported cases. Many do not report.

Can anyone work this out?

Btw data shows 125 transpeople in prison out of an estimated 600,000. This is 0.02% of the population. There are 4,045 woman in prison out of an estimated 32 million. This is 0.012%. There are 79,950 men in prison out of an estimated 31 million. This is 0.25% of men.
Therefore men are more likely to offend than transgender people by 1100%.

You lumped transmen and transwomen in together there, and you then compared them with men but not women. Even if the stats you quoted are true transpeople (0.02% of the population) are twice as likely to offend as women (0.012%)

reportedly outweigh Transwoman at a ratio 4:1, with 100 transwoman in prison and 25 transmen in prison, the crime rates stand at 4:1 showing statistically a transwoman is no more likely to offend than a transman. (Who by your definition is a biological woman, no?)

You seem to have a particular problem with transmen. You keep coming back to the idea that because transmen are women then crimes committed by transmen prove - fuck knows how - that transwomen should be permitted into women’s spaces.

You can’t have it both ways. You can’t keep asserting that transmen are violent and this proves that women are violent without admitting transmen are women. And if transmen are women transwomen sure as fuck can’t be women too.

I agree materialist, my point has only been one thing - that your statistics that you keep using are not true, reliable facts.

I have said many times I don’t think it’s up to us to provide the data, nor have I disagreed that transwoman’ are more likely to offend at the same rate as men than woman. Nor have I said transwoman are biological woman.

I have merely been saying that the data everyone keeps using is not some kind of ‘gotya’ doesn’t prove anything. People seem so intent on refusing to admit that, that they’ve instead brushed over this and made several other points that are irrelevant to the discussion.
As the question was ‘where do you get your data/numbers from’

I have no problem with transmen whatsoever, but they are part of the transgender discussusion, they can’t just be ignored. Sorry if that causes you issues or doesn’t fit with your narrative but I won’t just pretend they don’t exist to make you feel better.

I’ve not said that I’m trying to prove that transwoman should come in woman’s spaces, there’s a lot of projection here.

Presumably, those 125 trans people have GRCs. This means there are 125 trans offenders with GRCs per 4045 women offenders. If this is a perfectly representative number, and was proportional in terms of women, then there would be over 1 million people with GRCs in the country.

125:4045 is the same as 1,019,778:33,000,000

As I said earlier - why not let any man who wants to be in there go in women's spaces, therefore?

This is what it all boils down to. Why do we segregate in the first place? And if there’s a sensible reason for that segregation why should it apply to some men and not others? What’s so magic about changing your pronouns that the rules that apply to other members of your sex cease to apply?

nellodee
Presuming is sort of where the whole thing falls apart. None of these inmates hold a GRC, they are self identified.

Sorry... 100 transwomen per 4000 women offenders = 825,000 transwomen in the country. I have to presume that we are talking GRC - surely prisons don't count on the basis of self-id already?

The onus is always on those who want to make the change. That a debate website doesn’t understand that tells you all you need to know about their understanding of the rules of debate.

Indeed.

Are they? I was sure that I had read that was only the ones who were officially trans, and that there were a great many more unreported.

surely prisons don't count on the basis of self-id already?

They do. It's discretionary when there is no GRC. Supposedly,

Christ. I'm flabbergasted that certain people on this thread are still stuck on crime figures. Women's spaces are women's spaces for a myriad of useful reasons. Men who identify as women render the space whatever it may be, meaningless.

ScottCheggJnr
So, again....why can't I say "I don't want to be incarcerated with black people because they as a class commit more violent crime"?
I've still not read a feasible explanation for this awkward question

Black men can't get white men pregnant. Black women can't get white women pregnant. Men can get women pregnant and men can and do rape women. Keep males out of women's spaces particularly if they are vulnerable or in an enclosed space. Regardless of the rate their particular ethnic group is perceived to commit crime.