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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

That it's not just what you say, it's also how much you talk about it.

574 replies

NicolaHare · 12/11/2018 20:48

Surprise, another trans thread! But the dynamics of online spaces fascinates me.

Take MWR. Some stats. Feminism Chat has been active since 2010. At this moment 364 pages of threads have been generated. 144 of those pages contain threads that were created or active since January this year. At the beginning of 2018 a significant portion of threads were trans themed and these threads tended to contain the most posts, and the board has only grown more fixated with the topic since then. You have to go quite a ways back to find a page of threads that isn’t 90-95% to do with trans people.

Nowhere else on the site is so obsessed. For example: on the LGBT themed boards you only have to go back 1 or 2 pages to find threads from 2017 and earlier. There aren’t any trans threads in the 1 and a fraction page of threads from 2018 on the politics board. There are, I think, about 2 in the half dozen pages of threads from this year in the currents affairs and news forum. And in 2018, all the education forums combined have generated about 5 trans threads.

This is weird, right? Why is a general feminism board with an overwhelmingly non trans userbase so fixated on a group of people they don't belong to and the issues surrounding them? It would be weird regardless of what anyone in any thread had to say on the subject.

Not surprising, though. Trans sceptical feminism ironically almost always ends up focusing on the transgender question to the exclusion of all other topics that its proponents believe that trans inclusive feminisms are neglecting, and so neglects them to an even greater degree. Honestly, I’m sceptical that they are being neglected at all: it seems to me that conversations about pregnancy, menstruation ect are happening in public view at far greater volume than ever before, taboos surrounding bodily functions are increasingly discarded by the discourse and pop culture, and that when we talk about erasure we’re actually quibbling about terminology, the trappings of language and not the substance of the conversation. To assign a motivation to the common theme on feminism chat of “We are being silenced elsewhere!” a significant part of it might be the catharsis of imagined persecution. “We are saying the truths THEY don’t want you to hear! We are rebels!”

(This interview with a former gender critical trans woman is worth reading. It’s American and several years old, but it describes the many of the other toxic intellectual cul-de-sacs you can observe in MWR. www.transadvocate.com/is-sadism-popular-with-terfs-a-chat-with-an-ex-gendercrit_n_18568.htm)

But to set aside the discussion of substance. Do you think that the mere volume of trans threads in feminism chat is indicative of a kind of transphobia? If it were a forum of straight people talking about nothing but same sex attracted people, even if what they had to say was positive would we not be inclined to see in it's users a troubling insecurity with regards to queerness. If it were a forum of white people talking about nothing but people of colour in the most effusive terms, would we take this at face value or would we assign sinister motives (as the resonance of Get Out suggests many would)?

OP posts:
ICJump · 14/11/2018 09:14

Jesus Christ! You can’t really believe that you are providing evidence for innate gender principles by saying lady Macbeth was played by men. It was illegal! Does women not having the vote also prove gender innate. By fuck it does. Those things prove that women have been oppressed by men for a really long time.

Honestly stop navel gazing and have a look st what has actually happened to women.

howlsmovingcastle84 · 14/11/2018 09:15

How many feminine traits do I need to have to qualify as a woman? For example, I'm wearing both trousers and a dress today. Man or woman??

NicolaHare · 14/11/2018 09:15

Anyway, I said my definition. You've responded with total and intractable scepticism. So I pose the question: What is a trans inclusive model of womanhood that you would accept?

I'd also argue that there is a political utility to gender as I define it. You say that sex, sex is the thing, and it is immutable. And that's as maybe. But we should also grant that it is obfuscated by the artifice of gender. Some of it we see, but some of it we must acknowledge we can't. So set no limits. Shoot for the stars. Hit the moon. Reconsider definitions when you get there. I don't think it's useful for us to seek meanings of sex and gender that will hold true forever.

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 14/11/2018 09:16

Oh, the hours I spent poring over "Unsex me here!"

AngryAttackKittens · 14/11/2018 09:17

My jumper today is dark green, which isn't really a very strongly gendered color. How will anyone figure out if I'm a woman or a man? Especially if I have a hat covering my hair. Could the boobs possibly be a clue, or do we have to take into consideration a spectrum of boobs-having?

LangCleg · 14/11/2018 09:18

What is a trans inclusive model of womanhood that you would accept?

You are actually this dopey, aren't you?

The one where "trans men" are women, dear.

deepwatersolo · 14/11/2018 09:18

Anyway, I said my definition.

Oh, I must have missed that. Where is it?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/11/2018 09:18

I'd also argue that there is a political utility to gender as I define it

what is the political usefulness of gender please?

AngryAttackKittens · 14/11/2018 09:18

"Anyway, I have stated why I think the earth is flat. You have all responded with intractable skepticism, and also piss-taking. So I pose the question: what is a flat earth inclusive definition of maritime law that you would accept?"

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 14/11/2018 09:19

floral

Ds has a lisp due to an operation (short term)

He was worried his English teacher would make him do something with S in it as a reading

I said...oh its macbeth, shouldn't be too bad

And he said

'Unthexth me here!'

Point made

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/11/2018 09:20

Also NicolaHare, I'm still interested in the traits that will help me to identify people with a masculine or feminine gender

it would be great if you could give some examples. you seem to feel very strongly about innate gender, so I guess you have thought about this?

Ereshkigal · 14/11/2018 09:20

"Ungender me here!"

Datun · 14/11/2018 09:20

"Anyway, I have stated why I think the earth is flat. You have all responded with intractable skepticism, and also piss-taking. So I pose the question: what is a flat earth inclusive definition of maritime law that you would accept?"

Nailed it.

Ereshkigal · 14/11/2018 09:21

Hilariously so.

Datun · 14/11/2018 09:21

Also NicolaHare, I'm still interested in the traits that will help me to identify people with a masculine or feminine gender

I, too, would love to see this. I think we'd all love to see it. Because as soon as you see it, you see it.

Ereshkigal · 14/11/2018 09:22

Social justice aikido is my new favourite expression.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/11/2018 09:23

Social justice aikido is my new favourite expression

ditto.

AAK has such a way with words

deepwatersolo · 14/11/2018 09:23

So set no limits. Shoot for the stars. Hit the moon.

As a STEM scientist I can safely say that you cannot shoot for the stars nor the moon if you can't define what you mean by the terms 'star' and 'moon'. You might go on and shoot a whale and not even realize it was no star.

LangCleg · 14/11/2018 09:23

"Anyway, I have stated why I think the earth is flat. You have all responded with intractable skepticism, and also piss-taking. So I pose the question: what is a flat earth inclusive definition of maritime law that you would accept?"

I know this one! I know this one!

Where the waves grow sweet, doubt not Reepicheep, there is the Utter East.

(I'm a Narnian feminist.)

SophoclesTheFox · 14/11/2018 09:24

There definitely is a political utility to gender. The patriarchy finds it immensely useful.

AngryAttackKittens · 14/11/2018 09:24

Is this the same DS who told you that you were being sexist, Rufus? He sounds adorable.

Datun · 14/11/2018 09:25

Also, OP, and I'm not being funny or nothin', this is a genuine request. Could you sprinkle a few judicious commas into your paragraphs?

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 14/11/2018 09:26

There definitely is a political utility to gender. The patriarchy finds it immensely useful

yes, but NicolaHare seems to be saying that we should accept gender because of its political utility

so I'm hoping she can explain how it would be useful to us?

thanks in advance Smile

SophoclesTheFox · 14/11/2018 09:27

Exactly, bernard. am being brief because i’m supposed to be working and also i’m not sure if this merits my A-game Grin

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 14/11/2018 09:28

AAK

Yes it was and no he isnt Grin

(He is really...i was howling with laughter the other day, but ill stop merailing Grin)