Janice Turner: "When self-identification trumps biology, men can be women, white can be black and age really will be just a number"

[TimeLady]

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-identity-politics-win-a-man-of-69-can-be-49-bqh6rsjqw?shareToken=4fd4aac12f70686bfe4311abe13e7c50

Pretty much backs up what Trevor Philips was saying last month

Fortunately Jane Clare Jones arrived to save the day:

So much so that the weaselly mansplainer deleted the original tweet.

Deleted but not erased

mobile.twitter.com/DaisyGudmunsen/status/1061538465840590848

Fortunately Jane Clare Jones arrived to save the day

Jane Clare Jones is an absolute shero.

Where have all the women gone
And where are all the gods?
Where's the streetwise Athena to fight the dudebro clods?
Isn't there a skjaldmær upon a fiery steed?
Late at night I toss and I turn
And I dream of what I need
I need a shero
I'm holding out for a shero 'til the end of the night
She's gotta be smart
And she's gotta be fast
And she's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a shero
I'm holding out for a shero 'til the morning light
She's gotta be sure
And it's gotta be soon
And she's gotta be larger than life!
Larger than life

Somewhere after midnight
In my wildest fantasy
Somewhere just beyond my reach
There's someone reaching back for me
Racing on the thunder, and hitting at deceit
She's a cerebral Valkyrie who sweeps me off my feet

etc...

Hah! Love that arranfan

@hipsterfun Try this link which should work for you.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/i-m-identifying-as-a-young-black-trans-chihuahua-and-the-truth-can-go-whistle-tq550nx5f?shareToken=e1e3814c340bf63c86841ab646881e60

Dudebro’s argument boils down to Gender Dysphoria is a Thing

Floating round, there's a remarkable Letter to the Telegraph (2002?) from a number of psychiatrists from relevant institutions stating that gender dysphoria is a mental health fiction as a discrete entity but is a manifestation of a mental health disorder (just not the one in the ostensible presentation).

Does anyone know the letter I mean? One of the signatories was Dr Az Hakeem (author of the textbook).

I definitely saw a screenshot of the full letter but part of the letter is reproduced here:

In 2002 in response to the European Court ruling in the case of Christine Goodwin v. the UK that she had, among other rights, the right to marry a male person, Hakeem and 5 others wrote to The Daily Telegraph that such a ruling was: [following is the embedded quotation from the letter]

a victory for fantasy over reality and that our concerns were that the problems and conflicts within the trans-sexually conflicted individual may not be wholly solved by either surgical or legal manoeuvres.

zagria.blogspot.com/2011/04/az-hakeem-19-psychiatrist-psychoanalyst.html#.W-gsz62cbEo

Janice responds to David 'woefully out of my depth' Shariatmadari:

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1061406105010663425

Thanks, welshbookworm.

Strange times when one finds oneself stuck between a Rod and a woke place.

Owen jones’ pov:

Owen Jones🌹
@OwenJones84
This take is the anti-trans equivalent of "if gay people can married, then why can't people marry goats or toasters?" History will be equally brutal to both takes.

Lovely thread by gloss witch about the Jane Clare Jones intervention and Janice Turner's piece!

Do male columnists really think female columnists sacrifice themselves on the altar of Having An Opinion About Gender because these silly women just haven't thought it through, what with gender not being a big deal for them and all?
...
"Yeah, I thought I'd just casually volunteer for death threats cos I can't be bothered to work out the difference between gender and sex" said no woman ever.

twitter.com/glosswitch/status/1061542313967656960

The Jane Clare Jones Intervention

Would make an excellent band name.

What did she say?

Would make an excellent band name. - I rather fancy it as a podcast :)

What did she say?

I have no wish to diminish the full joy of reading Jane Clare Jones by summarising away her pithy turn of phrase or relentless politeness:

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1061398914916597760

Thanks for no spoilers

Podcasts, yes! The three-hour interview was ace, but YouTube isn’t the ideal platform.

@OwenJones84: This take is the anti-trans equivalent of "if gay people can married, then why can't people marry goats or toasters?" History will be equally brutal to both takes.

This is not a logically coherent. Neither goats no toasters are human, while men and women irrespective of their sexual orientation are.

On the other hand, humans simply cannot change sex or age, even though there may be variations of their cellular and physiological make-up that may be prototypical for a different sex (e.g. hormone status) or age (e.g. telomer length).

Thing is Jones, history isn't the only thing being brutal to women what disagree with you and your fellow dudebros, is it?

Excellent work there, arranfan !

That Jane Clare Jones takedown of Shariatmadari is joyous. We all say stupid things online sometimes (well ok I do) but to compose a multiple tweet on a subject about which you clearly know nothing is a level of arrogance that's way out of my league.

But (look away if you don't like spoilers) I stopped laughing when I got to the bit about him deleting some of Jane Clare's tweets. I can understand feeling so stupid that you delete an entire thread and take to your bed, but to just weed out the bits that make you look bad when you're a journalist and facts are supposed to be your business - that's shameful.

It's also very stupid cos now I don't just think the man's an idiot, I feel I can no longer trust anything else he writes.

But I did laugh again when I read his Twitter by-line: Can't get enough of experts (except when the experts are women).

I can understand feeling so stupid that you delete an entire thread and take to your bed, but to just weed out the bits that make you look bad when you're a journalist and facts are supposed to be your business - that's shameful.

That's the Guardian writer of today for you. Also see "journalism ought to be founded in the principle that trans women are women", according to that sanctimonious American twit of last week's US Guardian rebuke to the Guardian.

We all say stupid things online sometimes (well ok I do) but to compose a multiple tweet on a subject about which you clearly know nothing is a level of arrogance that's way out of my league.

Glosswitch's tweeted comments on that were hugely enjoyable (linked upthread).

Oh, to have the confidence of a mediocre white man, etc.

Feminist4. Your daughter seems to be un a very fragile state. Counselling and therapy may well be in order - not just for the re-affirmation of the trans identity that she currently espouses and holds to be true. Such a fragile and precarious state is not healthy in the long run, and is not a good basis for a strong & stable sense of self.

The fact is that nobody here has ever said that trans people"are all rapists" Women have, though, been voicing serious and well founded concerns over the implications of Self ID for women, single sex spaces and services; as well as on the ability to be able to describe and discuss one's lived experience as a woman.

There is a complete lack of logic in the trans position, as well as an inability to engage with genuine debate. All debate is seen as being destructive of the trans person's sense of self. this can never be a sense of self which has real integrity; and that is because it relies on the suppression of speech and the genuine concerns of other people.

Healthy self identity must rest on firm foundations, not on untruths.

Owen Jones has clearly never really thought through the whole transgender ideology. He spectacularly misses the point every time he posts about what he considers to ne transphobia. He equates trans rights with gay rights. End of. No further though or consideration given at all.

Saying that a man cannot become a woman, or that a white person cannot become a black person; or that a 60 year old cannot become a 20 year old - just because that's how they feel or 'identify' - is not the same, at all, as saying that " if a gay person can marry; then I can marry a toaster". Just ridiculous! I don't get how he cannot see his own logical inconsistencies.

Strange times when one finds oneself stuck between a Rod and a woke place.

I couldn't agree more @hipsterfun I can't stand most of what Rod Liddle writes, but on this he's spot-on. As for that perennial teenager Owen Jones, I'm one of the many, many on Twitter blocked by him for daring not to agree with something he wrote - in this case about trans matters. It's almost a badge of honour nowadays.

That Jane Clare Jones takedown of Shariatmadari is joyous.
It is superb, but my god it's depressing to see how many unthinking journalists the Guardian employs these days.