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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner: "When self-identification trumps biology, men can be women, white can be black and age really will be just a number"

157 replies

TimeLady · 10/11/2018 06:54

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-identity-politics-win-a-man-of-69-can-be-49-bqh6rsjqw?shareToken=4fd4aac12f70686bfe4311abe13e7c50

Pretty much backs up what Trevor Philips was saying last month

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QuentinWinters · 10/11/2018 12:18

I think the 69 year old wanting to be 49 is very clever satire. The reason I think that is because of the Tinder reference. As if younger women are put off him because his profile says 69, if it said 49 they would all want him (ignoring the fact his physical attributes would be identical and plenty of younger women like older men,). It's very cotton-ceiling ish.

Weezol · 10/11/2018 12:20

I'd very much like to identify out of my disability. I can, theoretically, 'pass', but it wouldn't change the fact that I'm in pain every day because of it.
Presentation doesn't change biological reality.

Fallingirl · 10/11/2018 12:53

I cant see how, in the passage you quoted, Butler is doing anything but using fancy language to describe what users of common speech call “socialization into sex roles.”

That’s pretty much it. For what it’s worth, Butler never ever claimed gender is a free-for-all. And she was adamantly against any notion that gender is a subjective feeling.

When I first came across gender ideology 10 years ago, gender ideologist were very critical of Butler. I have no idea whether Butler has much to say about gender ideology now. She hasn’t focussed on gender since the 1990’s.

Using a Butlerian or performative approach to gender now, I would say the way TRAs aredoing genderis extremely masculine. The sense of entitlementthey display looks an awful lot like performance of ‘manhood’, not womanhood.

Unfortunately Butler did not pay much attention to power structures, that any performances of gender exist within. I seems pretty clear to me, that the only reason gender ideology, or more specifically the claim that men are women if they say they are, is gaining such traction, is precisely because it is primarily white, middle to upper middle class men who are driving it.

They really are performing their priviledge, while women cheering them on are displaying their female socialisation very claerly.

LikeDust · 10/11/2018 13:14

They really are performing their privilege, while women cheering them on are displaying their female socialisation very clearly.

So true. I also think Butler's actual influence is contrived from people like Natacha Kennedy orchestrating WikiBullshit.

hipsterfun · 10/11/2018 13:21

All of that self-indulgent imagining without testing or proof needs to be confined to art and amusement and stay they fuck out of science and law.

I’ve come to think of PoMo thought as being to the rest of intellectual endeavour what flexibility exercises are to competitive athletes.

hipsterfun · 10/11/2018 13:36

Unless you subscribe to the miserable, blinkered concept of cultural appropriation, piecing together your identity from diverse sources is one of life’s profound joys.

Well said, Janice.

Now, I’m off to listen to the final two hours of that JCJ long interview.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 10/11/2018 14:12

How did Butler think the species reproduces and has offspring? Mind boggling.....

TimeLady · 10/11/2018 14:31

How did these Butler theories take hold? Was it though Women's Studies/Gender Studies? Or Philosophy? Social Sciences?

I can't imagine the STEM faculties giving it the time of day.

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TimeLady · 10/11/2018 14:37

Some great responses to Janice's Twitter thread here:

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1061169479336517632

Humour is definitely a good way to get the absurdity of the issue across.Wink

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Bowlofbabelfish · 10/11/2018 15:07

It’s a great article and the Dutch chap is doing a marvellous thing.

When a court denies it, it will have to rule on why.
And that reasoning applies to any physically immutable characteristic.
Well done sir.

And if the court allows it through i shall identify as a male 90 year old and insist on an absolutely top notch annuity for my pension, because they can’t deny me.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 10/11/2018 15:21

Combining transgenderism and transage isn't unheard of and there are other budding Stefonknees out there

twitter.com/sargesalute/status/1061272894095933440

Janice Turner: "When self-identification trumps biology, men can be women, white can be black and age really will be just a number"
VickyEadie · 10/11/2018 15:23

There is no hate in this article.

Ah, but the word "hate" has been redefined to mean 'anyone saying something I don't like'.

Dragon3 · 10/11/2018 15:36

Janice has been consistently at the front of the pack. A great journalist. Brave, too. I hate to think what sort of abuse she is receiving.

DisrespectfulAdultFemale · 10/11/2018 16:57

I'm pretty sure that Challenor senior identified as a small girl whilst abusing a child

It doesn't matter whether or not Challenor senior identified as a six year-old girl as under Stonewall's transgender umbrella, he was a six year-old girl.

welshbookworm · 10/11/2018 18:29

Janice Turner is pure gold. I took out a Times digital subscription in the spring to follow the Brexit twist and turns. Back then gender criticism and the GRA consultation were barely on my radar. I have had a very steep learning curve since then and Janice's articles have helped enormously. One of the very best journalists in the country.

Idkwtf · 10/11/2018 20:52

The Dutch story is being discussed on LBC in a minute, they seem to be taking it as straight rather than treating it as satire

ouda · 10/11/2018 22:48

Suzanne Moore's article - on Trump but really on fascism, has a good quote that seems relevant here, in understanding the bigger potential picture:

Hannah Arendt described a long time ago the ideal subject of totalitarian rule as “people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction … true and false … no longer exists”.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/08/us-press-corps-trump-journalists-press-conferences?CMP=share_btn_tw

Is it accidental that immutable biological truths are being undermined as mere matters of opinion or personal preference?

FermatsTheorem · 11/11/2018 09:23

Ron Liddle's on the case in today's Sunday Times:
www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/i-m-identifying-as-a-young-black-trans-chihuahua-and-the-truth-can-go-whistle-tq550nx5f

hipsterfun · 11/11/2018 10:19

I can only see the first few lines of Liddle.

‘Tony Bark’ is plenty though Grin

deepwatersolo · 11/11/2018 10:26

Shon Faye has rejected an interview on the transageist Dutchman, according to Shon's Tweets. Shon feels trolled. Inviting Shon for a rational debate where Shon can explain why being transgender should be treated differently from being transage is trolling now.

One could almost be led to believe that Shon has no rational argument.

terryleather · 11/11/2018 11:28

One could almost be led to believe that Shon has no rational argument.

Absolutely.

Shon and the brethren don't have a rational argument everyone including them knows it, hence #nodebate

Shon and the brethren don't give two figs about rational argument, they just want total capitulation to middle class male entitled demands.

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 11/11/2018 11:59

As far as I can see (courtesy of twitter) the differentiating factor is that transgendered people have existed in different cultures and times whereas trans-race/trans-age hasn’t. Also that transgenderism is associated with gender dysphoria whereas the others don’t have any medical diagnoses attached (although how this squares up with the current prevailing thoughts that gender dysphoria isn’t a prerequisite to being trans, I’m not sure).

Rubidium · 11/11/2018 12:14

Last night on Twitter Owen 'some of my best friends are women' Jones praised a fellow Guardian Woke Bro for his "absolutely superb deconstruction of the latest attempt by the Murdoch press to whip up anti-trans resentment"

twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1061363232978452480

This "superb deconstruction" (i.e. yet another man telling women what we should be thinking while also spectacularly missing the point) can be seen here:
twitter.com/D_Shariatmadari/status/1061313162627178496

Fortunately Jane Clare Jones arrived to save the day:

twitter.com/janeclarejones/status/1061398914916597760

terryleather · 11/11/2018 12:19

Saw that take down of the "I identify as right" Guardian dudebro contingent - I've said it before and I'll say it again Jane Clare Jones is an absolute shero.

rightreckoner · 11/11/2018 12:27

Dudebro’s argument boils down to Gender Dysphoria is a Thing

India Willoughby went for the same line on This Morning.

But all it means is discomfort with gender. It doesn’t mean - is actually the other sex. It’s a symptom. It’s not an explanation.

We know this about body dysphoria - people understand that people with body dysphoria experience something emotionally that is not grounded in reality. But with gender dysphoria we forget that and decide that someone saying they have GD means they are literally women.

I am sorry for anyone with GD. But a discomfort with your male body - or more likely with what being a male entails in terms of gender behaviour - does not mean anything at all as to your sex.

These people are so credulous. And so hard of thinking.