A solution to gender vs sex

[Randomusername01]

If it is agreed that gender is different from sex and gender is a spectrum and sex is a biological fact why can't both be put on birth certificates? Sex recorded as it is now, either male or female and can only be changed in exceptional cases and upon medical proof I.e. a dsd as found in intersex people. Gender could be recorded as matching the birth sex but easily changed once a person reaches adulthood at 16 for a nominal fee to cover admin costs. Sex characteristics are protected and gender identity is recognised.

Sorry I thought sex was already changed on birth certificates.

Yes, but putting a 'gender' option on a birth certificate wouldn't work, would it? Because it would just be another layer of 'oppression' that trans people would have to face if they decide later in life that they don't conform to the 'gender assigned at birth'.

I understand the motivation to find a workable solution, but this will just perpetuate all the current tantrums and disagreements.

And exactly what age would someone be asked to put their gender on their birth certificate?

Or would we get to decide at 18 whether we wanted to be treated like a woman or like a man?

Craziness.

@floral is suggest gender should be entered at age 16 so people can identify as they do. Then can be changed as their gender changes.

Are men pinching women’s bottoms or telling them to ‘put the kettle on, luv,’ harassing transwomen in precisely the same way? Because if transwomen aren’t having men rub up and down them in crowded lifts then the percentage of ‘women’ suffering this form of harassment will go down if transwomen are included in the stats.

So you look at stats for 'female' if you want to see what harassment is occurring because of biology. There would be no fudging of the two if sex and gender are clearly separated and recorded.

Still won't work. You have noticed the push for lowering the age at which someone can 'identify' as another gender?

Surely everyone should be treating everyone with a bit of civility regardless if they are man or woman. However I don't think gender identity trumps protects sex based characteristics so I guess that is where the tra's would be unhappy.

You have noticed the push for lowering the age at which someone can 'identify' as another gender?

Maybe let people identify as another gender at whatever age they want then. Give them a framed certificate or something. Just make absolutely clear it has nothing to do with sex.

@jellyfrizz this exactly. Clearly separated categories between biological sex and feelzy gender would stop lines being blurred and female rapes increasing tenfold.

@floral I imagine this would be met with the same disdain when people paedos insist the age of sexual consent be decreased.

So you look at stats for 'female' if you want to see what harassment is occurring because of biology. There would be no fudging of the two if sex and gender are clearly separated and recorded.

Give me an example of one useful statistic that could be derived from recording gender - other than how many people identify as that gender.

It would stop things being recorded under sex female when it should be sex male. Trans women would still be recorded as sex male but gender whatever they pick.

Give me an example of one useful statistic that could be derived from recording gender - other than how many people identify as that gender.

Other than how many people identify as that gender - that would be interesting for a start.

It could actually be really informative to highlight biological bias. E.g. how many female women vs. male women take parental leave, go part time etc. etc.

Nice as it is that you’re trying to find a solution, this is a bureaucratic nonsense.

It could actually be really informative to highlight biological bias. E.g. how many female women vs. male women take parental leave, go part time etc. etc.

You’d have to correlate biological women (sex) against transwomen so you’d have to ask if they were transwomen, not gender.

Asking ‘gender’ would exclude biological women who identify as male.

Transpeople certainly think they face discrimination and higher than expected levels of violence. Thus I think it is very important to collect data to support or refute that claim and to enable actions to be taken to overcome any discrimination.

Thus, recording gender alongside sex should be supported.

Such data could also be used to reassure women that transwomen are no more of a threat to women than women, as they assert.

I work with data and a good deal of my time is weeding out noise - as well as complying with the data protection act so that we aren’t holding information that is unnecessary for the purpose of my job.

Gender is just noise.

Transpeople certainly think they face discrimination and higher than expected levels of violence. Thus I think it is very important to collect data to support or refute that claim and to enable actions to be taken to overcome any discrimination.

How would you get that information by recording gender? You can only correlate violence against transgender people by recording that they are transgender.

How could you determine the degree of violence against transwomen if the majority of those who identify as women are, in fact, women?

You can’t get this information by asking

(a) Sex
(b) Gender
(c) Have you ever experienced violence?

You can’t simply deduct (a) from (b) to determine how many transwomen have experienced (c).

Someone (somewhere - i can't remember who) suggested an even more elegant solution.

Sex is sex. On birth certificate. Cannot be changed apart from in exceptional circumstances (DSD..) as you say.

Anyone, for a low fee, can get a copy of their birth certificate with the sex redacted.

Employers, schools and authorities should only ever ask for your sex when there is an equal opportunities act reason to know (e.g. health, safeguarding, access to single sex facilities).

"Employers, schools and authorities should only ever ask for your sex when there is an equal opportunities act reason to know "

"Gender" pay gap?

Which currently actually goes with people's self identified gender not their sex

How many male vs female facilities they need?
Whether they are achieving decent levels of female representation through the ranks or if low paid roles are dominated by one sex with high paid roles by another (links to gender pay but companies tend to do more drill down, gender pay data is blunt insturment but still worth doing IMO)

There's more I;m sure.

The other thing is in eg a school it's totally obvious which are which

And from age 8 the sexes are supposed to be separated for changing etc (although multiple trans orgs have been into schools telling them this is not the case and if teen boys say they want to change with the girls then this must be allowed, if the girls are uncomfortable they must be re-educated / change elsewhere / if it's something voluntary eg after school sport they must reconsider whether it's teh right thing for them etc).

"Nice as it is that you’re trying to find a solution, this is a bureaucratic nonsense."

This

It won't fly anyone.

Step 1 confuse gender and sexx
Step 2 get everyone to accept that people can self declare gender
Step 3 get rid of sex as a concept / marker / legal characteristic
Step 4 return to patriarchy-max oppression of women (cunty)

Agreed the trans person needs to accept they are trans and record gender separately to sex, but if they want me or the law to take their claims of discrim8natiom seriously they need to prove it.

Their choice. It’s up to them to reject this, not us to reject it on their behalf.

It won't fly anyway

Gender is just noise.

It depends on what your data is for though. On a marketing database gender is probably likely to be relevant; you can target feminine gender people with lipstick and cleaning products and you can address people with the pronouns they prefer.

I could imagine that gender on a passport or driving license is also quite useful, but only alongside sex, not instead of, as they’re used as ID.

There was a post here recently along the lines of there being a case to record both at the doctors. It would allow your doctor to send letters saying ‘dear miss x, you are now due a prostate exam’.

But a birth certificate has no business recording gender.

(And yes, I realise cleaning products would still only be marketed at female sex people, not feminine gender people...)