A solution to gender vs sex

[Randomusername01]

If it is agreed that gender is different from sex and gender is a spectrum and sex is a biological fact why can't both be put on birth certificates? Sex recorded as it is now, either male or female and can only be changed in exceptional cases and upon medical proof I.e. a dsd as found in intersex people. Gender could be recorded as matching the birth sex but easily changed once a person reaches adulthood at 16 for a nominal fee to cover admin costs. Sex characteristics are protected and gender identity is recognised.

It could be offered and I think the general public would be behind it. Any refusal by tra's would probably show them in an unfavourable light to the general public. Also since there is no definition of gender I guess people could put in whatever one of the 67? they identified as, and the rest of us would see it for the lunacy it is

General public think gender means sex and would be baffled.

Additionally, there is no firm definition of what "internal gender" is from trans advocates, which will make things tricky.

I think encoding gender id as a thing in law is a bad move.

I don’t see what protection recording gender would give.

If a man wants to come to work in a dress why should it matter if he identifies as male or female?

It shouldn’t be a sacking offence unless there are some kind of safety issues - in which case a woman shouldn’t be wearing a dress either.

Because it's not defined and it's not measurable or provable.

It is whatever the person says it is.

And always seems to come back to stereotypes so this will be extra bad for women.

Because if he IDs as a woman he wants to be "treated as" a woman (whatvever that means).

While conversely most women want to be treated as people first not women. Beign treated as women first not people is what causes all our problems.

I think the notion that birth certificates should be a changeable ongoing running commentary that records a person's feelings, as they age from birth to death, makes a mockery of birth certificates.

I think it's an excellent plan OP. As you say, an opt-in.

I'm with you

I don't think beign "treated as" a woman involves taking a pay cut, gracefully dealing with blokes all over teh office trying to flirt with you, or being interrupted by passing people looking for directions etc while the men around you rarely are.

The flirting thing happened when I was younger, as far as I can see most transwomen identify as being very sex women in their late teens / early 20s so obviosuly they are expecting this.

I don’t see what protection recording gender would give.

What protection does recording religion give? It's to monitor for discrimination and look for trends in employment (isn't it?).

sexy lol

sex women might cover it though

Because it's not defined and it's not measurable or provable.
It is whatever the person says it is.

As is religion.

Women want to be recognised as scientists and soldiers and MPs.

Transwomen want to be recognised as female scientists and female soldiers and female MPs.

The only time women want to be recognised in terms of their sex is in employment law, sport, toilet facilities, medicine, rape crisis centres, etc - precisely the areas TRAs have chosen to muscle in on - sometimes literally.

Can you explain more? Are you saying you can't discriminate against a man who comes to work a dress? Ie tell him to go home and change.

Why not, protection for dress and pronouns.
Then we can all put gender: none and wear whatever we want.

Your idea is not a flyer though OP sorry

I don't really care either if there is a "gender" box on stuff as long as sex is there too.

Tracking numbers and experiences of trans people is a good idea as no doubt there can be discrimination.

However, it won't fly.

TWAW therefore their sex is female and is from birth. Your idea disputes that picture and is therefore heresy. It's not acceptable.

The end game is sex is taken off everything and everyone pretends they dont' know what sex anyone else is

While structual oppression based on sex continues and in fact is given the opportunity to flourish as no-one can track it / call it out any more.

If gender is a personal identity , you can’t put it on a birth certificate as you can’t ask the baby. It’s like deciding the child will be a scientist or a dancer

How would you even define gender? Maybe someone with too much time on their hands could come up with a Meyers Briggs type of thing for gender, or not, because the idea is nonsense.

Gender is a class analysis of the ways in which cultures socialise male and female people into conformity with patriarchal understanding of how the sexes should operate.

How that socialisation operates on people is dependent on their personalities and environments. You can see how genderisation shapes behaviour overall, but we have no schematic for describing the gender of individuals, the very thought is fantasy.

Sex is a biological reality.

Gender is the outcome of ideology imposed on populations. Individuals don’t have a gender; they think and behave in ways shaped by their experience of genderisation, which is quite different.

Even gender as a tool for class analysis doesn’t rely on the kind of crude sexual stereotypes which this whole movement keeps confusing with gender.

This is not about pink, frilly dresses as some kind of gender expression. It’s about assigning submissive behaviours to the sex class of women to enable men to control their reproductive capacity.

BUT utterly support the idea of trying t9 find suitable solutions

Declaring gender on Twitter statuses and pronoun badges is one thing; declaring gender on birth certificates is quite another.

"Sex is a biological reality."

Not according to that letter signed by a trillion USA sceintists, as per the other thread.

We will be burning biology books soon. I'm not kidding.

A tiny portion of the population can pursue their faith in gender, but it will have no relationship or relevance to sex or to sex based recognition, monitoring, spaces, services or rights.

This! This! This!

I can't think of any reason why gender would need to be recorded on a birth certificate. If a person identifies as a particular gender, how would anyone know what to put on a baby's birth certificate anyway?

Tbh having gender on birth certificates would go a long way to stamping out the cis people are eliminating me rhetoric. To non gender identifying people it will mean Jack shit. Just a pointless option to be ignored and left blank. I'd rather see gender on birth certificates that sex being changed as it currently is. Maybe the general public would need to be educated but that isn't anything that couldn't be achieved.

What protection does recording religion give? It's to monitor for discrimination and look for trends in employment (isn't it?).

What trends does recording gender show?

Are men pinching women’s bottoms or telling them to ‘put the kettle on, luv,’ harassing transwomen in precisely the same way? Because if transwomen aren’t having men rub up and down them in crowded lifts then the percentage of ‘women’ suffering this form of harassment will go down if transwomen are included in the stats.

If a transwoman is denied a promotion due to prejudice it is prejudice against them because they are trans, not because they are women.

They aren’t being denied advancement because the employer thinks they’ll quit work if they get married or have babies.

For information just to qualify a couple of things in this thread.

The original birth record of sex under the GRA is not altered. That birth certificate remains on record and permanently linked to the amended copy given to the trans person.

Neither certificate can be accessed by the public, but the link between the two can be where any legitimate cause to know of a change exists, for example police wanting to identify sex at birth for a crime.

Only about 3000 transsexual women have altered birth certificates in the UK as they require a GRC first and doctors assessing reasons to amend.

This would all change under self ID if it were approved.

No doctors would be involved - the change of birth certificate would be entirely self declared and not assessed in any way. Age to change would not be adult only but could be open to school children (16 is being asked for as lower limit). And 3000 would be possibly become hundreds of thousands.

Ooh I like the notion of gender: none. Then the sane people can't be held to any stupid gender stereotypes. Be free to wear trousers or skirts. Make up or no make up. Etc etc.