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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jordan Peterson Interview with Helen Lewis

170 replies

rightreckoner · 31/10/2018 10:07

here

It's long but I thought I'd give it a bit of a watch since I've heard so much about him. Initial thoughts are - he's not as clever as he thinks he is. Questions he doesn't like he closes down with a bait and switch answer or a terrifying Paddington stare. Comes across as a bit of a plonker. With absolutely no humour. Helen Lewis did a good job I think of not getting annoyed although he is so bullet proof there's almost no point in the discussion.

His basic thesis (if I understand it correctly) is that society is not shaped by the patriarchy but by competence. So the reason men are scientists and women look after babies is that they are better at these skills respectively. There is no such thing as the patriarchy.

There is a good bit at about 1.05.40 where she asks him why women change their names on marriage if not to symbolise their transfer from one man to another and he says - ugh, Margaret Atwood is an idiot.

OP posts:
PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 06/11/2018 17:01

his detractors repeat his message and strengthen it in the minds of his fanbase, thats also how trump operates

That does not make any sense.

he doeskin so much make things up as frame things in a way which conceals and distorts the full picture

Maybe people who disagree with him should put up better arguments then. I have watched a few of his interviews and read countless hatchet job pieces written about him and there is a trend towards attacking the man rather then what he is actually saying. If his arguments are that weak and transparent why has nobody knocked him off his perch. He seems to be in great demand for interviews and does not seem to only accept the 'easy' ones, where is that youtube clip of him being completely shown up as the fraud so many on here think he is?

WeeBisom · 06/11/2018 17:33

It's impossible to argue with Peterson in good faith, though. I have seen people attempt to make very reasonable inferences from what he says, and his reply is 'no you've completely misunderstood'. It would be far easier to debate and argue with him if he was more transparent about what it is that he actually believes. He hasn't been 'knocked off his perch' because he is very good at obfuscating.

For example, in the famous NYT interview, Peterson discusses the case of the incel who murdered people because he was frustrated at not getting sex. Peterson said, "He was angry at god because women were rejecting him. The cure for that is enforced monogamy."

This seems to be very straightforward. A young man was 'angry' because 'women were rejecting him'. The 'cure' for such anger is 'enforced monogamy.' The easiest interpretation of this is that Peterson thinks that the cure, the solution, for incel anger is to enforce monogamy. If you enforced monogamy, then young men wouldn't go on murderous rampages or be so angry at women. And what's enforced monogamy? Well, one presumes this would involve limiting women's sexual freedom - setting up, or heavily encouraging, a system where women's monogamous behaviour was 'enforced'. This would result in young men getting sex and female companionship and presumably not being so angry anymore.

It's also an incredibly shitty, degrading, and anti-feminist idea, so it got some criticism.How does Peterson respond to this criticism? "you totally misunderstood that very simple two sentence quote!" he replies. By 'enforced monogamy' he only meant that the cure for incels is to culturally promote monogamy - not actually enforce it with force or through law. The government just has to promote and big up the concept of marriage and that will cure incels.

Incidentally, Peterson's explanation of what he meant renders his idea boring and nonsensical. At least if he was going for the dangerous idea of actually enforcing monogamy, there would be something to get one's teeth into. But no, all he meant, apparently, was the very dull idea that marriage should be promoted by the government. Which seems to presuppose that marriage already isn't a major culturally endorsed institution.

And this is just one example, he always does this - says something sexy , exciting and inflammatory when in actual fact he meant something exceptionally pedestrian that can't be strictly read off what he actually said.

OldCrone · 06/11/2018 17:48

Do you really think that given his number of detractors just itching to trip him up at every opportunity that JP would just 'make it up' and hope nobody notices?

Plenty of people do just that. No idea if JP is one of them.

Anyway, there have been plenty of studies, a 30 sec google search flags up a number of them, or are you just expecting others to provide evidence for you and until that happens you can just write it off as 'anecdotal'?

If I'm trying to convince someone about something, I'll provide evidence so that they can't write it off as anecdotal. I quite often see people posting stuff on the internet without any evidence - I assume they would supply the evidence if there was any. People post plenty of stuff which is complete bollocks, and I don't see why I should spend my time looking for evidence which doesn't exist.

Google scholar brought up nearly 52,000 hits for 'scandinavia gender equality'. Am I supposed to read them all to try to find the one someone is referring to?

Dr. Nima Sanandaji published a paper called '“The Nordic Glass Ceiling' and later wrote a book called the 'The Nordic Gender Equality Paradox' .

Thanks. At last a concrete reference. Google scholar only finds a Swedish version for this. Do you have a link to either in English?

merrymouse · 06/11/2018 18:08

The government just has to promote and big up the concept of marriage and that will cure incels.

How does that help 'incels'? Doesn't it just make the rejection more formal?

JuliaJaynes9 · 06/11/2018 18:13

It's impossible to argue with Peterson in good faith
aye, it's like trying to pin jelly to the wall, herd cats etc
he's a slippery bullshitting trickster

PanGalaticGargleBlaster · 06/11/2018 18:38

It's impossible to argue with Peterson in good faith

Good faith like Cathy ‘so what you are saying’ Newman who went out of her way to reduce his remarks to a hostile caricature? Let’s not pretend that all of those interviewing JP brought ‘good faith’ to the table.

vicviking · 06/11/2018 19:36

Thanks for the nordic glass ceiling paper. I read it and it doesn't support what JP is saying.

JP argues that women in more egalitarian societies don't do STEM due to inherent differences between men and women. The paper shows how the tax and welfare systems in some Scandinavian countries act as a disincentive for women to work full time.

In that context women enter the labour market with an eye to careers that they combine with bringing up a family. This would suggest strong social, cultural and economic reasons for not pursuing STEM and for choosing courses that prepare them for careers than enable them to balance home and work.

Countries that take less tax and where women can afford to farm out domestic tasks have more women in STEM. Countries with less of a safety net and a narrower range of career choices have more women in STEM.

OldCrone · 06/11/2018 20:22

vicviking
Thanks for the nordic glass ceiling paper.

Do you have a link to an English version? I could only find it in Swedish.

OldCrone · 06/11/2018 20:25

Found it using google. I normally use google scholar to find academic papers, and it didn't find this one.
www.cato.org/publications/policy-analysis/nordic-glass-ceiling

BabyItsAWildWorld · 07/11/2018 09:32

Interesting article from Helen Lewis on her thoughts about JP and the interview
www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/helen-lewis-jordan-peterson
She seems more measured in her thoughts on him then many people

JuliaJaynes9 · 07/11/2018 09:40

He sells himself as professor logic and yet he speaks in metaphor

OldCrone · 07/11/2018 11:29

As vicviking says, the nordic glass ceiling paper doesn't support JP's views at all. In fact it says "Women take more responsibility for housework and childcare, on average." So the egalitarian society turns out not to be so egalitarian after all. If women are spending more time on domestic duties than men, then any choices they make regarding paid work has to take that into account.

I couldn't see anything in that paper about women in STEM. It was all about women in the boardroom and getting to the top in their careers generally. All of which is coloured by the fact that they spend more time on childcare and housework than men do.

vicviking · 07/11/2018 12:08

Sorry Old Crone I should have been clearer about the STEM comments. I was drawing on the fact that STEM careers are generally seen as more difficult than non-STEM careers to be pursued part time. My argument was if you have a society set up where it is difficult to see how you can work full time then it may influence decisions you make about what careers to pursue.

OldCrone · 07/11/2018 14:02

My comment about STEM wasn't aimed at you, vicviking, it was in reply to this by PanGalaticGargleBlaster:

Researchers, from Leeds Beckett University and the University of Missouri also did a study on the phenomenon that found that countries with the greatest gender equality see a smaller proportion of women taking degrees in science, technology, engineering and mathematics (STEM).

Found a link to that study here (haven't read it yet):
eprints.leedsbeckett.ac.uk/4753/6/symplectic-version.pdf

Manderleyagain · 08/11/2018 11:54

I laughed out loud when he said "I'm really a very agreeable person".

JuliaJaynes9 · 08/11/2018 11:59

It's a bit like trump saying 'I'm a very nice person'
'I have all the best words' etc

Anna6998 · 01/12/2018 19:16

Hi guys, unfortunately this thread is not well informed and relies on lazy accusations of misogyny. I suggest this BBC Radio 5 airing for people who genuinely want to understand Jordan Peterson's stance on masculinity:

After reading through the comments on this thread it is clear that the people have not listened carefully to this interview and are grossly mis-characterising his arguments. As such, people are attacking a straw man caricature that makes Peterson seem extreme and irrational when in actual fact, his arguments are well reasoned and frequently backed up with hard science. He is certainly very serious, but considering he is constantly having people purposefully misconstrue his arguments that is probably justified.

In terms of him appealing mostly to men - I have attended one of his shows (in which he spoke thoughtfully for an hour about the importance of telling the truth) and the audience was roughly 40% female. There were people of ages between 20 and about 50, many there with there partners. The stereotype of his followers as young, alt-right misogynistic incels is completely inaccurate, and often used by people who wish to dismiss him so they don't have to address his substantive arguments.

Many people have said that he thinks women are just meant for having children and men meant to do the important jobs. He has never said women are only capable of looking after kids, or should have to have kids, or aren't able to do certain jobs. In the example of engineering people mostly a male profession, he draws upon the fact (established for decades) that women tend to be more interested in people and men tend to be more interested in things. There is a lot of overlap meaning that lots of men will be moderately interested in people and lots of women will be moderately interested in things. However, in order to be an engineer you need to be very interested in things, and it so happens that most people who are very interested in things are men. Hence, the lack of women engineers is not a result of a patriarchal conspiracy but a result of women's free choice. If we really care about women being free to do as they wish then we shouldn't get annoyed if they tend to not choose certain careers. Same with the "wage gap" - this is not a result of pay discrimination but a result of different career or life choices made by women.

Ladies- we should be aware that women now dominate the majority of university courses , including humanities, medicine, vert med and biology (which are all people oriented subjects). Young women are being paid more than young men, and the women who do work in the STEM fields are more likely to be hired than men due to positive discrimination. There is also vast amounts of positive discrimination in other areas which ends up benefiting middle-class women more than working class women who actually need the help. Men work more hours, take fewer days off sick, do more dangerous jobs, are badly discriminated against in family court, are 40% of domestic abuse victims and are more likely to live in poverty or be homeless and also more likely to die from suicide. The ex UCAS chief recently said that school boys aren't receiving adequate assistance because feminists have made helping boys taboo. That's really shameful.

Maybe it's time to stop naval gazing, trying to see oppression wherever we look and accusing any person who talks honestly and openly about these issues as a misogynist. Boys and men are falling behind, which is a tragedy and will only end up damaging all of us. This attitude that men have it easy, or that all their problems are of their own making is really cruel and self absorbed. We should care about all people and problems - preoccupation with women's issues is coming at the expense of men. We need to be having these conversations simultaneously and assessing things with a fair eye.

We also should not shun scientific evidence when it says things that undermine our ideologies. That is what the Catholic church used to do - let's not fall into that trap. Eg. There are average psychological deffirences between men and women, in both personality and interests. These differences grow as societies become more egalitarian between gender, demonstrating that the. As a result of different average interests and personalities, we should not be surprised when there are different outcomes in career choices for men and women. Remember that equal opportunities and equal outcomes are mutually exclusive, ie. when there is equal opportunity and free choice, the outcomes will never be the same.

Anyway, I could go on - but I've tried to address some of the main glaring mischaracterisations of Peterson's stance that I've seen in this thread. You don't have to like what he says, but at least make an effort to genuinely understand it rather than hurling personal insults and resorting to ill-informed and lazy accusations of ignorance and bigotry. Happy to elaborate if anyone cares for it.

LangCleg · 01/12/2018 20:21

Ladies

We're not ladies, thankyouverymuch. Do keep up: we're right wing, embittered, bigoted crones. HTH.

ginandbearit · 01/12/2018 21:12

ladies hehe heheh ...such a giveaway ..

Namenic · 01/12/2018 21:58

Dunno if all STEM careers are less easy to pursue part time. It’s a chicken and egg. Part time options may be made available in jobs where there is demand for it. My husband works in STEM and his company’s attitude is changing and becoming more flexible. I know lots of nurses and doctors and the health system would collapse without part time working - though the rigid staffing demands actually make it harder to arrange such working patterns. But maybe working on a North Sea oil rig would be hard to do part time.

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