Jordan Peterson Interview with Helen Lewis

[rightreckoner]

here

It's long but I thought I'd give it a bit of a watch since I've heard so much about him. Initial thoughts are - he's not as clever as he thinks he is. Questions he doesn't like he closes down with a bait and switch answer or a terrifying Paddington stare. Comes across as a bit of a plonker. With absolutely no humour. Helen Lewis did a good job I think of not getting annoyed although he is so bullet proof there's almost no point in the discussion.

His basic thesis (if I understand it correctly) is that society is not shaped by the patriarchy but by competence. So the reason men are scientists and women look after babies is that they are better at these skills respectively. There is no such thing as the patriarchy.

There is a good bit at about 1.05.40 where she asks him why women change their names on marriage if not to symbolise their transfer from one man to another and he says - ugh, Margaret Atwood is an idiot.

Might be worth splitting off a thread for the meat & patriarchy topic - it really horrified me and I'd like to discuss it more.

He's a modern day Rasputin

I quite like it when he tells young men to grow up and not be self-pitying.

But Margaret Attwood has a brain the size of a planet. I would have thought he could spot that.

Margaret Atwood has a brain the size of a planet but Jordan Peterson fan club members do not so it's very easy for him to discredit her with a short put down

Tells young men to grow up because he is appealing to the strict fatherhood morality gestalt

In other words it aligns with authoritarianism, which aligns with patriarchy

Some of it could be biological, but obviously there's a lot of conditioning that takes place during formative years.

And which parent is more likely to be doing that conditioning from an early age?

I'll second the experience of vegan men being self-rightious controlling pricks. Just had to share residential accommodation with one and he was a right woke nobber that didn't feel moved to contribute to the shared duties - while looking down his nose at women people.

I'm sure there's a venn diagram that can be drawn with male people who identify as transgender, males who espouse left wing politics, males who are vegan. If only I could think of what to name the area in the middle!

Beards may feature too.

If only I could think of what to name the area in the middle!

Self Righteousness Event Horizon

I'm sure there is a single word.

:) re the Venn diagram

Julia, if you would be kind enough to explain gestalt to me I would be grateful. I used to pretend to understand it long ago at Uni (but did not).
"Tells young men to grow up because he is appealing to the strict fatherhood morality gestalt....In other words it aligns with authoritarianism, which aligns with patriarchy"

On the subject of non-woke smart men, I was listening to Crowder from "Louder with Crowder" talk about men ("what kind of a man do you want to be?")_and I was impressed because he (i) acknowledged the patriarchy and (ii) said he was happy with it because it fits with his religious world view. Apparently he believes that after death when he is judged he will be held to account for everything that occurs in his household.

This left me in the odd position of reflecting that I would much prefer a spirited debate with Crowder than with my fellow-guardian-reading men because Crowder is not in denial.... strange times.

His basic thesis (if I understand it correctly) is that society is not shaped by the patriarchy but by competence.

I have been teaching STEM courses at university for many years and I can honestly say that what differentiated the average male student from the average female student was not a surplus of competence but a surplus of prepotence.

A factor that I think might be overlooked (?) when it comes to the question of why society historically formed in a way that gives males all the power (patriarchy) is that women's life spans were generally rather short and unpredictable, due to child birth. So society could not really bank on them and it, therefore, made way more sense to invest into the education and career of men. Sure, war could kill off men, but my impression is that - at least in the old days when wars were waged with axes and swords - the risk of death on the battle field paled compared to the slaughter that child birth was, no?

I think that it’s only recently that a large number of people have received any kind of education. Men have been valued as workers because of their value as unskilled manual labourers and as leaders because of their ability to fight.

Women can’t compete with that, and are restricted by pregnancy and caring for high maintenance small humans.

However, arguably more men than women have struggled to cope as industry has shifted away from manual labour.

‘Professional’ jobs are a very recent invention.

Julia, if you would be kind enough to explain gestalt to me
I would had you not all the worlds knowledge at your fingertips via google

If only I could think of what to name the area in the middle!

Insufferable?

Self Righteousness Event Horizon

Prep Often Enough? Is what my iPad changed prepotence to.

Ouch Julia just patronised me. I shall flounce off.

no no, if there's a wink it's not patronising!
Flouncing would be unreasonable imo

Sorry, I'm only twenty minutes in and I've got the rage. I am not an expert on the concept of patriarchy and I was agreeing with Peterson a bit, but Helen is trying to have a conversation and share ideas while he just wants to win points come hell or high water. Grrrrrr.

I quite enjoyed his 12 Rules book.
Obviously, the sexual politics are rage making.
He's pro gender roles, pro masculinity. But not toxic masculinity.
It's good to see a man putting forward Good Qualities to young people.
It's such a shame he has to gender them. But more people being self confident rather than self loathing et etc is good.

In many ways whether the difference between the sexes is nature or nurture doesn't matter.
There's not one woman alive who can't understand the feelings of lust, or the pleasure in being self sufficient, say. Every man understands the feeling Of seeking intimacy or feeling the need to care for someone elsr. All this hand wringing would be 99% obsolete if patriarchy didn't bang on about it so much and police it.

But yeah, what a pity he sees for to poison the well.

My very conservative uncle gave me Petersen's book for my birthday. I read a few pages on bringing up kids then put it in the charity box. I then got it out of the charity box and put it in the paper recycling bin.

Out! I just got to the end of it. Helen Lewis did a great job. She writes about the experience of interviewing him here www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/helen-lewis-jordan-peterson. I agree with some of what he says, but he's so humourless and combative in interviews I think it's counterproductive. Everything is "I didn't say that/would never use that word" - any actual chance to explore the point is usually lost in defining the terms or sidetracked. It's not just Helen or Cathy Newman though - I've heard the podcast with Sam Harris and it was just as awkward and stilted an interview. Interesting that he cited him as his most 'intelligent opponent'.