Why can’t all women see the dangers?

[Couragetocourage]

I’m having another wobble about all this. I’m watching women I agree with in almost every other political view, and yet they disagree with me about the dangers of self-ID. Why can’t they see it? I understand why men can’t, but women? Labour women MPs, who clearly have thought about the issue, disagree about the dangers. Why? we're not wrong are we!?

I think it's a combination of a few things: the assumption that we're talking about old school transsexuals (who were mostly gay) and students who are experimenting with gender. The instances they see of the 'choke on my cock' people, they think are just the rare assholes who aren't representative, instead of the people running the current movement.
I think more women are having that 'oh shit' moment though.
MPs are different. They've been given this information and it's political. I'm going to be remembering this, come the next election.

Gronky: I used to be a midwife, worked a fair bit on the postnatal ward. We had mainly 4 bedded bays. Although it was a new unit, it wasn't very spacious once you had the bed in, the bedside table, a chair or two and the baby's crib. So where would the baby's father actually sleep? Would we have to get (and store) lots of camp beds and associated bedding? Pillows were a total nightmare, constantly being nicked as it was. Who would sort the beds out/do the laundry etc? This is the NHS we're talking about. Doubling a part of the workload.

Then the bathrooms. Each bay had its own bathroom for use by the women. So presumably the men would use it too? Great, needing to empty a full post-delivery bladder but oh no, someone's husband's taking a dump.

Then there's the general ideas of privacy, dignity, safety for the women. The people who raised this issue with me only ever thought about themselves (where have we heard that before?), they wanted their man with them, the man wanted to stay with 'his' woman and child, but they didn't want other men sleeping in close proximity to 'their' woman! Doesn't compute.

I would find it as unacceptable as booking myself into a women's dorm in the YHA and finding a load of blokes in there.

If I hadn't discovered mumsnet feminist chat I would be under the impression that it's just a few individuals who go to extreme surgical lengths to change sex and therefore, pose no or limited threat to women. I did think at the beginning well what's wrong with accepting and saying trans women are like women (i would have never said they are, I have GCSE biology). It's only reading further that you realise hang on no way can self id be allowed.

Most people start off from the position of being tolerant and accepting and the trans movement seems to have capitalised on that.

I wobble sometimes. I live in a country where self-ID is already law and I don’t see anything happening. It’s easy to ignore. You have to look closely to see the problems that are beginning.

That’s the thing. I think we’re being boiled like frogs. We weren’t meant to notice, but now we have and we’re scrabbling round, wondering if we will be able to get out.

I suspect in the Houses of Parliament that there are also some who realise there’s a wider problem, but are telling themselves that the GRA is just paperwork. And in a way it is. I don’t think the GRA, in isolation, will make a massive difference. We’ve been subjected to self-ID already for a while.

But of course, the GRA changes are not happening in a vacuum and so far the direction of travel is all in one direction. Look closely at each change and you see nothing. You have to pull out and look at the big picture.

Most people start off from the position of being tolerant and accepting and the trans movement seems to have capitalised on that
This is why I think that while this is an uphill battle, we're reaching a tipping point. So many women started off accepting it unquestioningly, then realise just how badly our rights are threatened once they realise what the actual issues are.
I haven't heard of any feminists suddenly having a 'peak GC' moment and changing their minds. It's not going the other way.

Before I retired I was a social worker in child protection ,many people struggle to understand safeguarding issues and hope that magical thinking will make risk disappear.
Its all too difficult.

I agree with maternity words, having a nurse administer an ice pack to my poor nethers in the night was heaven, a few dads in there would have stopped me from asking for help.

I think some do know, but have decided it’s acceptable collateral damage. But of course admitting that sounds awful so they lie and pretend there’s no danger.

Others maybe aren’t certain, but take the sticking their heads in the sand route to preserve the illusion.

Perhaps because women are mostly left of the picture and the left, women and men, tend to run in a herd, terrified of what will happen to them if they step outside the group think. Look at the fate of GG.
Its youth is mostly riven with identity politics.
Why do why do you think that practically the only regular support you are receiving is from those on the right?

I agree.... I am bemused by the number of my friends who all seem to get it when I explain, and relatively easily (though usual surprise media not covering it etc) .. but then ask why I have got so involved?

I'm sitting here thinking wow - you are a woman, usually have a child, how would you NOT get involved? How can anyone NOT see this as the most important issue for women and girls in the western world today?

Gronky maternity wards are where women often feel extremely vulnerable and exposed. There is copious bleeding and sometimes stitches and catheters and bedpans. There is leaking milk and sore breasts and screaming newborns and exhausted weeping. I would hate to have random clogging up the place and making the women uncomfortable. I wouldn't dream of inflicting my own dh on others in that way.

(Random men)

I think many of the female politicians on the labour bench who go along with this do know to some extent the dangers. However they are not deep thinkers. They also see it as a price worth paying to get into power and implement their policies as if they don't go along with trans rights they lose momentum support.

Maybe it is because to many if not most women self ID doesn’t actually pose a danger. While I find the idea of men accessing women’s spaces and using them in a manner of that intimidates women unpleasant it isn’t actuaply dangerous to me because I am a grown woman who is educated about sexual assault, has the confidence to articulate her discomfort etc. And men having access to women’s only competitions, promotions etc isn’t a threat to me because I don’t play sports and I don’t believe in sex or gender segregated competition outside of sport (its patronising and counter productive to women in that it masks inequalities). The only women to whom self ID is a danger are the he vulnerable ones who are not as confident, articulate, knowledgable etc. and sadly they rarely voice political opinions or seek to exert political pressure.

I can only assume they have not really thought things through; nor are they fully aware of the true nature of the trans- gender 'umbrella'. I wasn't, myself, until a month or so ago......At first it just looks like a human rights issue; one which most people would have sympathy for.

I also suspect that many MP's are pre-occupied with other issues; and also with towing the party line; & their career in politics.

And as others have said, I really do think may people are herd creatures, and will always go with the prevailing culture or wind - no matter where it has blown in from.

I find it impossible to imagine that women such as Dianne Abbott, Yvette Cooper and Jess Philips have really engaged with the full depth of this issue.

I think most people/women see it as the final frontier in the civil rights movement - who doesn't want equality for all?
I think a lot of people believe a lot of the 'truths' (trans teenagers killing themselves at epidemic rates, trans are the Most Vulnerable Of All etc).
I think people don't it as losing rights, just extending them to the Most Vulnerable Of All and who in their right mind would be against?
I've had Stonewall crap all over my social media with people telling me what to think about it all, sick of it.

The only women to whom self ID is a danger are the he vulnerable ones who are not as confident, articulate, knowledgable etc. and sadly they rarely voice political opinions or seek to exert political pressure.

Sounds a lot like victim blaming racecardriver

Any woman or girl could be the last one in a toilet in a quiet railway station or shopping centre. Criminals are often opportunists, albeit ones who maximise their chances of doing what they want and getting away with it. Do you think you won't be assaulted or raped because you are articulate? FFS.

Many women just don't want to open their eyes, or like you think they will magically be OK. Well, we can all think that until sometimes, shit happens to you. Thankfully many of us are able to risk assess on your and other women and girls' behalf, so we will do the hard thinking for you. You're welcome.

As far as the left is concerned I think it's an element of 'we are the tolerant, compassionate, cuddly people' and it's the tolerant compassionate thing to do.

Whereas those of us who are not of the left i.e. centre or right are more likely to think 'that's a load of weirdy bollocks' and aren't afraid to say so. Notable exceptions of course - Maria Miller etc. al. Gawd knows what is ringing their bells.

Also if you are not on the left you are probably less likely to worry about being called a T**F or a bigot - because you used to it and can shrug it off.

So many confuse common sense with bigotry.

Thank you for the responses. I haven't had children myself and, consequently, tend to associate more with other childless individuals/couples in person. I'm very surprised that the fathers were demanding bedding, I was more imagining a situation where they'd sleep in a chair (or not be sleeping at all) and hadn't considered the toilet situation either (the general wards I've seen have visitors toilets at the end with clear signs as to which are for patients, staff and visitors).

I think they think that there will be safeguards so it is all a panic over nothing. They stumble a bit when KW is mentioned, but just do a bit of word salad and try to move on.

I think as well we now live in a world of 'do whatever you want to do and don't let anyone judge you'. Having an opinion about anything is bad, people should just be allowed to get on with what they want to.

I also don't think they realise the true extent of what is happening, even those who I would expect to know, saying things such as 'natal children wouldn't be expected to share changing spaces with trans children' - they have obviously never read Brighton's Trans-inclusive policy then.

MP's, and everyone else, have sleep-walked into the situation. This has been a very well orchestrated campaign, with a lot of private backing. It has sailed in under the radar, clothed in the language of gay rights and other liberation movements. Many of the most vocal trans campaigners are gay men, and lesbians, such as Maria Miller - who have adopted trans rights as their new spearhead, now that most of the civil rights that they set out to achieve, have been achieved.

Most people of left/liberal persuasion just see this as an extension of gay rights. They have not thought it through - nor seen its inherent inconsistencies and contradictions.

Slight derail - when I had my DS this year men were allowed on the ward and slept in a chair next to the mother. There was a lot of snoring. I was glad I got to go home the day the woman arrived whose husband kept suggesting she'd have to 'suck him off' because she'd just had a 10lb baby and mocking the other women on the ward. :-(

I'm on the left, Labour councillor and momentum member. But I can see the dangers, and I can't understand why my comrades colleagues can't. I'm not cynical enough to believe that all of our front bench women are turning a blind eye to progress their own careers. I feel like I'm missing something.

I struggle to understand the young activists too. I'm in my 30s so I'm not that far away from them in age, and they're the only ones I know in real life who support self-ID. The older left wing women tend not to. Why do people think all these socialist, long standing labour women have suddenly morphed into bigots? Why aren't they thinking about it?

I once met a female MP who said she just goes along with what the PM says to advance her career, even if she didn’t agree. Shame she wasnt my MP, so I couldn’t vote against her.

They are or have been shadow minister for women. They absolutely must know if and understand the issues, so why don't they share our concern?

Because they want to keep their seats at the next election.