Ok... so I’m getting SOOOOO confused

[Dontknowwhereisit]

A trans activist I follow on social media (who I’m not going to name as it’s irrelevant) has posted something about Trump and the fact that what Trump is doing is playing to the fears of those people who believe that there are two fixed gender identities (therefore inferring that there isn’t).

So (at the moment) I personally agree that for ‘gender identity’ there is more than the binary M/F and that trans, non binary or whatever you want to call yourself is a valid gender ‘identity’ and I’m happy to use what ever pronouns you want. However I believe this is distinct from biological Sex which IS M/F (or in rare cases intersex), and that natal females need to continue to have their rights preserved and respected.

But what confuses me is that this person is a vocal hater of gender critical feminists but in effect saying what a lot of GC feminists are saying too eg acknowledging is that a trans is a gender identity which is a distinct different identity to a natal one.

So basically saying the same thing.

So. Confused.

Is anyone able to enlighten me as to how to unpick this?!

Diagram

My understanding is that trans activists think that gender identity is a physical reality that is more important that sex.
They think sex is a bit made up and how we feel we should be seen is more important and valued

For me. It falls into place when you think non binary is nonsense.

Everyone is non binary, so to identify as non binary is non sense.

I am a woman, but I am non binary gender (if you must call me that) because I do maths, science, no makeup (masculine things) and also wear dresses, sometimes makeup (stereotypical feminine things). But I don’t declare myself non binary. It’s non sense. I am what I am.

For gender, I read ‘gender stereotype’ each time, and I do not conflate sex and gender.

But, I guess this is the million dollar question, why then are they not willing to accept trans is a distinct gender identity as non binary people do? Why is there a need to appropriate ‘man’ or ‘woman’ when by their own admission there is no binary for gender? head against desk in despair

@theprinciple yes there is a huge issue with the mixing up of the notion of gender and sex and that is what we seem to have gotten into.

I’m happy for gender to be what ever anyone wants to be for everyone to have human rights regardless of what you want to name your gender as, but I’m getting increasingly uncomfortable with it being at the erosion of female rights.

GC feminists say that gender is a social construct forced onto people depending on their sex. Therefore we reject the concept of gender (why would it be intrinsically female to wear make up or a skirt? Men can do that, too. Does not make them women). Transactivists, by contrast, believe that the preference for adopting the stereotypes of femininity means they are women. They buy the gender stereotypes bollocks. Which is why they think, if you are not the full on Barbie or Ken living stereotype, you must be nonbinary as opposed to just human.

Because they are trying to equate trans as ‘woman’ or ‘man’ .

Because it does not compute and is not meant to compute no matter how hard you try. When you realise this, all this trans stuff is just nonsense bollox that even they themselves get tangled up in.

But @dont know

If gender identity is whatever you want it to be - fine. It means it is meaningless- sort of fine. But to write laws built on meaningless bollox? Not fine.

I don't understand any of it,I didn't understand the op in her first bit,the names just Adle my brain..I've tried following the feminism threads ,but they loose me with names I don't understand

Personally I think the type of TRAs need the validation of being seen as 100% authentic women. For that to be possible they must redefine everything, so that your own belief is what makes reality. Obviously, in order to make people buy into this idea, it needs an incentive for the cheerleaders required, and the best incentive is to make everybody feel a little special. And voila, the nonbinary identity was born.

I understood the bike competition,that the winner was clearly a man.lord knows how that happened,.i just think it's clearly a mental illness,

Apparently you can’t say that vegan, that is literal violence and hate crime to call it a mental illness .....although many would agree with you.

agreed @theprinciple and your notion of gender meaning gender stereotypes I can identify with.

Why is the law drafted on the basis of ‘gender’ rather than biological sex? Surely if the latter was the case then there cannot be any argument that someone can ‘self ID’ as the opposite sex unless there is a medical prerogative for it (like intersex cases). And that this mess would be gone (or am I simplifying it too much?!)

They NEED us to be confused, so that they destroy our current understanding and concepts of gender/sex, so that they could reconstruct it with the TRA narrative and vocabulary when we get more ‘educated’. (It reminds me of what the Communists used to do in China)

You are not simplifying it too much.

That’s the way I see it as well.

The alternative is you can make it as messy and complicated as you want to make it.

Give it 50 years time ,doctors will be horrified at what we did to young teenagers ,stopping puberty with hormone blockers,when we didn't know long term outcomes..the whole mess is the equivalent of us encouraging a person with anorexia that it is a lifestyle choice and must be respected..feeling you need to change gender is a mental illness like depression,that needs antidepressants..doctors in the future will be horrified we operated and changed people's sexual organs ,when they needed medication.just like we are now horrified at lobotomies/ Electric shock treatment from years ago...but hay what do I know ..

Vegan no need to understand all the special terms. You understand the principles. There is sex, human males are men and human females are women, and that is all there is to it. All else is just bollocks to sow confusion or make people do stuff they don‘t Really want to do and that is all.

I feel ,what's right and what's wrong ,no idea of the names ,trans activities..no idea ,just know I don't want a penis in my sports centre changing room.i don't want young teenagers used as experimental fodder for doctors who have no idea long term what the impact will be.i know what a woman is ....and isn't ....she gives birth ,she menstruates,she was born with female sex organs .she does not have a penis under her dress...I don't see why there are fancy names for different groups ,it is designed to confuse

Interesting - I follow another person who is non binary and they make the following statement (paraphrased) ‘transmisogyny and intersex erasure is perpetuated by the arguments that sex is stable and gender is fluid’.

Which is a different and nuanced narrative than a lot of the TRA agendas - as gender apparently to others is non binary and fluid! I think the intersex angle is interesting and think the recent thread is enlightening and not supportive of intersex individuals being dragged into this.

My head hurts.

I miss the days when gender was just a useful word in the study of hierarchies and inequalities. The concept of gender identity as it's used today is masturbatory bollocks. It wouldn't matter so much, except how the fuck did we get to a point where men are now telling me, "look, this bloke shares your gender identity, why aren't you letting him into your space?"

Why this nonbinary person drags intersex into their argument only God knows. For intersex people do experience first hand that sex is stable and are sick of being dragged into this, ironically by people who make the opposite arguments intersex people are making.

Good threat here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3401146-Shit-Now-I-agree-with-Trump

A trans activist I follow on social media (who I’m not going to name as it’s irrelevant) has posted something about Trump and the fact that what Trump is doing is playing to the fears of those people who believe that there are two fixed gender identities (therefore inferring that there isn’t).

I am not "afraid" of two fixed genders.
I am not "afraid" of a thousand fixed gender.

What frightens me, is penis in the women's showers, hospital wards, athletic teams, rape crisis centers, etc etc.

It's it weird how, after decades of women telling them exactly what concerns us, they still can't understand words that even a child could understand.

isn't it

I agree that "gender" is bullshit, "biological sex" is different, and currently a protected characteristic. Transgender people do not feel like they identify with their current gender. Why does or should that change thier "biological sex"? Maybe gender can be a "feeling" but sex is a tangible reality.

We don't wait 3 years, to see how a child identifies, before we decide if they're male or female. It's blantantly obvious, and can be determined even before a child is born. Everything else is indivdual personality, not pink brain or blue brain, I like what I like because I'm a person, with a mind, not because I have a vagina? Gender is based on often inaccurate stereotypes, and makes sweeping generalisations.