AIBU to refuse to use 'preferred pronouns'?

[BonBonns]

If someone presents themselves as transgender and says they want to be known as 'she' do I have to do that?

Do I have no freedom of speech?

I do not believe people can change sex.

I do not believe that a man can become a woman. With pronoun use. With hormones. With dresses or lipstick. With surgery.

It is just NOT my personal belief.

Is it a hate crime to refer to someone born male as a man against their will?

Even if it is against mine?

Where would that end?

I am atheist. Do I have to say I believe in God to appease a Catholic? Am I forced to refer to a priest as 'Father' even though I don't follow that religion?

If someone is called David but wants to be called Dave am I to be investigated if I choose to continue using David?

Isn't this madness?

How can my own beliefs come 2nd to someone else's delusions?

It is biology. It is science. It is common sense.

A man cannot become a woman any more than I can become 23 again or an antelope.

I generally use peoples preferred pronouns. However I have started to, if they make a ridiculous big deal over them, purposely accurately sexing. I make a point of using the correct pronouns (meaning, not using the wrong ones for their sex) when I meet someone new and they lead with 'I am X, my pronouns are zie/zir' or something

I don't think anyone should be forced into using incorrect pronouns, through fear of violence, or losing their jobs, or whatever. And I think those that make such a huge fuss over pronouns have questionable motives tbh. Seems to be more of a control thing than anything else.

Jelly, regarding the sliding scale, it's female socialisation but also consistent with resisting coerced speech. It's perfectly fine for women to set their own boundaries regarding when to use female pronouns (I know that you weren't suggesting otherwise!) Not fine for men or other women to set those boundaries for them.

Recently at work I called someone sir, I later came to the realisation that they are in-fact f 2 m trans. I felt awful at first but then realised that it’s an easy thing to do and actually I was factually correct.

That Andrej character is interesting. He's obviously male, apparently comfortable in himself, and comfortable mocking conventionality. Bizarre that his French agent describes him as their best female model! (Offensive, too.) His androgyny is nothing to do being 'female' or trans, it widens the bandwidth of bring male.

Yeah YANBU, and you know it and think it's impressive somehow. Pathetic really.
You should show people the basic respect of addressing them how they wish to be addressed.

But back to pronouns.

'I am X, my pronouns are zie/zir'

No, they aren't your pronouns, X. They do not belong to you. They are commonly understood to mean specific things, otherwise they are gibberish.

X can request that you lie or speak gibberish, you don't have to go along with it.

'I am X, I prefer the pronouns zie/zir to be used when referring to me' is more mannerly, but it would make as much sense as me saying 'I am Jelly, my pronoun is His Holiness', or 'I am Jelly, I prefer the title His Holiness to be used when referring to me.'

You should show people the basic respect of addressing them how they wish to be addressed

I'm not a Doctor but please show me basic respect and call me what I wish.

Or Rev. I quite like the idea of rev.

And I'm not the Pope.

How do women feel about the mis-naming they often experience?

An example

I am Ms Pandoras Bag and my husband is Mr Adams Basket. My husband's brother and his wife will write cards to me as Mrs Adams Basket. They believe that because we are married this is the proper form of address and the fact that I say well actually I don't use my husband's name and am always addressed as Ms Pandoras Bag makes no difference.

I find being deadnamed by my mother and wrongly named by my in laws profoundly annoying - though I daresay they both derive satisfaction from it. So I will use the names/pronouns that people prefer because it's basic politeness. That doesn't mean I'll inwardly believe that 6ft bearded Dorothy is a real woman - just that Dorothy feels a bit happier that way and that genuinely doesn't cost me anything.

(On the other hand if Dorothy goes in for the women's writing competition that I have entered and gets first prize, pushing me down to second I'll not be very happy with Dorothy unless Dorothy has a Gender Recognition Certificate.)

What difference would Dorothy's GRC make? Dorothy would still be male, with male socialisation etc etc. Why would it ever be OK for Dorothy to enter a Women's competition?

Though I get that you'll treat Dorothy with the courtesy you'd expect from them - until Dorothy tramples you with their maleness.

(Their! )

YANBU

I suppose the point with the GRC is that I believe in the law - certainly as it currently stands. And I believe in there being a relatively condition known as gender dysphoria. (What used to be called being a transexual)

I think that if someone is really unhappy in their body and has gone through the necessary processes then in most circumstances I am happy to go along with the legal fiction that permits people who were born as a member of one sex to be treated as a member of another.

I think that was - and is - socially workable in a way that current transactivist demands are not.

I think yabu because I know how socially disrputive and inappropriate it would be in the context in which I deal with trans people.

however, that's different from a justification for my position.

You have misunderstood, I obviously am appalled by the way the system failed the victims of Karen White, who shouldn't have been allowed access to females until there was no chance of them being raped. I meant simply that on a PERSONAL level, being kind to the individual stood in front of you should always be placed before your own pride. I have no suggestions for how the legal navigation of these issues should occur, but undoubtedly it will be done. This IS the future and giving people the confidence to be themselves is important. It makes me sad to see the comments of hard headedness and hatred, and makes me hope that these ill founded and bigoted behaviours aren't passed on to your kids. No one has gotten anywhere by being divisive and prejudiced, acceptance, or at the most tolerance is key.

"makes me hope that these ill founded and bigoted behaviours aren't passed on to your kids."

Won't someone think of the cheeeldren! Bad mothers. We start drinking the gin at noon too you know.

Your misogyny is showing.

Who said anything about 'pride'? Many examples on this thread of how the coercive narcissistic behaviours, emotional blackmail and shaming women for not being kind/human doormats ^^ and other male abusive behaviours towards women can be used to enforce use of preferred pronouns. Suggesting women suppress their own instincts which exist for their own protection is clearly open to abuse. You have shown no empathy for women whatsoever.

I'm not a Doctor but please show me basic respect and call me what I wish. Or Rev. I quite like the idea of rev.

I've always rather fancied Abbot, despite it being entirely factually incorrect.

But Andreja Pejić has never, to my knowledge, called himself a woman, so I have respect for him.

This person had sex reassignment surgery in 2013. I still see male, though.

In fact, exploiting women's kindness and politeness is exactly how rapists and sex pests manage to entrap women 'Do you think I'm ugly or something?', 'don't you trust me?' etc etc Sickening you're using the same tactics here.

I sincerely hope you do not have children, for their own sake, but I also doubt you will find anyone willing to partake in that kind of activity with you so is not a great concern

You are talking about hard hearted ness and hatred and you wrote that?

Are you an idiot or are you just identifying as one for the purposes of this thread?

Both the transwomen I know are referred to by male pronouns in their absence. I have known one since we were kids and even his family call him he. I have never had to use pronouns about him in his presence because I avoid being in his presence, as do many other people. He's not a nice person.

The other is in my friendship group and some of them have known him for decades. He is transsexual and I hear he suffered terribly recovering from genital surgery. He has a jokey female name, like Ruby Slippers, but his old friends keep forgetting and calling him Henry (it's not really Henry, obvs). It doesn't bother him as, like Miranda Yardley, he knows he's male, though getting rid of his dick really mattered to him. He is well liked.

I'm lucky not to work anywhere that enforces gender ideology, so it's up to me. If I feel someone is respectful I will try not to hurt their feelings but I will go to some lengths not to lie. I'm crap at lying anyway.

As for not realising that transwomen are using our facilities, I think women are better and quicker at spotting the sex of strangers than men, which makes sense as our safety is far more affected by not noticing which sex someone is.

The legal fiction may entitle Dorothy to call themselves a woman, but the immutable fact is that Dorothy was, is and continues to be a man. A man, with male physiology and male socialisation.

Interesting you should say that- I have been in no way misogynistic and I have all the empathy in the world for women, being a woman myself...it seems rather you lack empathy for the individuals who are being shunned and invalidated, just because of how they express themselves.

What I said was not cruel or hateful, I could've said much worse, I was expressing my regret that the bigoted and ignorant views could be passed on to future generations. An assembly at school told us that almost half of young transgender people have attempted suicide. Some of the people on this thread make these kids feel like they would rather die than be who they are. Excuse me for thinking thats fucked up and we ought to do everything we can to change it. Imagine if that was your kid, and people refused to call them their nickname "on principal", with no empathy towards their wishes or wellbeing.

this video addresses homophobia, but I feel the premises of acceptance and kindness is much needed in this thread

That suicide figure you’ve heard in a school assembly has been completely refuted by the NHS trans specialist services for children and teenagers. It’s actually considerably less than 1%

It’s really bad that mistruths like this have made it into schools, you should probably contact the governors immediately.

An assembly at school told us that almost half of young transgender people have attempted suicide

Which school? They’ve used completely false statistics. Are you currently a school aged child? If so this isn’t the forum for you.