AIBU to refuse to use 'preferred pronouns'?

[BonBonns]

If someone presents themselves as transgender and says they want to be known as 'she' do I have to do that?

Do I have no freedom of speech?

I do not believe people can change sex.

I do not believe that a man can become a woman. With pronoun use. With hormones. With dresses or lipstick. With surgery.

It is just NOT my personal belief.

Is it a hate crime to refer to someone born male as a man against their will?

Even if it is against mine?

Where would that end?

I am atheist. Do I have to say I believe in God to appease a Catholic? Am I forced to refer to a priest as 'Father' even though I don't follow that religion?

If someone is called David but wants to be called Dave am I to be investigated if I choose to continue using David?

Isn't this madness?

How can my own beliefs come 2nd to someone else's delusions?

It is biology. It is science. It is common sense.

A man cannot become a woman any more than I can become 23 again or an antelope.

One of the transwomen I met, my DH was with me. He accidentally kept referring to her as 'he' (not while she was there) and I kept correcting him. He did try and get it right but he said 'I'm just saying what I see, it's tricky!'

I don't think men are expected to toe the line on this misgendering thing in the same way as women are, and they don't. Because men aren't expected to be as 'kind and accommodating' as women are.

Being intentionally coercive is unreasonable.

You are completely within your rights to be a knob though.

I agree with ‘she’, yes, I more had in mind something along the lines of (keeping my fictional Isabelle character!) “Isabelle wanted the salt, could you pass it down to her please?”

Although maybe I’m trying too hard. I’m sure I have used pronouns in front of people though...

I would really hope your trans friend does not know your in here and sees how you refer to them when they are not there as they may not want to remain your firend

And that is a problem why?

can’t you just use a different pronoun for the sake of being polite

Oh be nice little woman.
Fwiw, I will use names at all times. I refuse to lie about biology, but a name is No problem.
Yes conversation could be quite convoluted but meh.

Meh. I'm very dubious about young women being given hormone blockers, worried about women's sport, and think there should be steps taken to protect women's spaces from possible abuse, but I'm quite happy to call people what they want to be called. No skin off my nose, and it might make them happier.

I’ll call people what I feel like.

My next book will be called ‘the tyranny of kindness’ and it will be about how women, shamed into kindness, are led into dark and perilous situations.

‘Could you pass Isabelle the salt please’ works just fine!

There is no reason to use a pronoun when the person is present and it’s not natural to do so. Not in spoken English anyway (couldn’t say for other languages).

I think in a group situation we do use pronouns loads.

It's amazing that so many male born people think we can't tell the difference between a woman and a man dressed as one, it seems like wishful thinking. Despite any hormones taken and surgeries they may have had, it's obvious when someone is female or else performing femininity. I wonder if there is any scientific research on this, how the female body reacts and how the senses respond when in the presence of and viewing a male. It's been shown that both men and women's hormone levels react in the presence of a baby, for example. I also wonder if men's inability to pass as women has anything to do with the firing of mirror neurons.

...not wishing to derail, so to bring it back to the point, the amount of cognitive dissonance women feel when being asked to refer to a man as a woman, brings about a conflict and going against our own instincts. I would use preferred pronouns if the person was respectful themselves, but it's clearly open to abuse as a form of coercive control by narcissists.

Andreja Pejić looks a lot like a man. Just sayin

Yes, they honestly do look like a man to me, I can see it clearly.

Yeah, walking around the market and talking, it’s obvious:

To be fair though, Andrej doesn’t claim to be a woman.

brings about a conflict and going against our own instincts

Yup

It's as plain as day! Very physically attractive person, I'm not disputing that, but my initial internal reaction is 'that's a man'. We can use pronouns to be polite if we feel it's fair to do so, but we can't change that instinct, and so any use of preferred pronouns is to go against our protective instincts which have probably evolved biologically over millennia. It's easy to see how this can be abused.

As is this sliding moral scale of when someone 'deserves' or doesn't 'deserve' their chosen pronoun.

Yes, it is...strange. Female socialisation, I think. Balancing truth and 'be kind'

Its rude to ‘he’ Karen Smith?

Is this the arguement?

*karen whatshisname - the rapist.

What about Ian Huntley?

If they are in prison it doesn’t count?

My comment about Andreja was in response to bellatrix14

I have met or seen transgender people where I would have had literally no idea that they were born any different to how they appear now (the model Andreja Pejić for example) and likewise I have met and seen those where yes, in all honestly I would have probably guessed that they had gone through that process

If a man commits male on female violence then demands to be called female, this is clearly an extension of the abuse on the victims. A bit like when Ted Bundy insisted on representing himself in the court room and interview his victims. It may have been his legal right to do so but the motivation is clearly abusive.

@Flooffloof - long thread (which I have read) but I missed that, sorry. So we agree then.

Insisting people go against their own perception and policing their language is gaslighting and coercive control

Yes this occured to me the other day when my 10 year old child came home from school and said he'd just seen a transgender person walking along our street (we'd recently had a chat about sexuality/gender etc). Anyway when I asked what he meant he said well I saw a bald man with a beard in a dress and high heels, and yes that is exactly what he saw, a bald man in dress, what he didn't see was a woman and that's when it occurred to me that we are now expected to gaslight our own children. Nope sorry not about to insult my child's intelligence. I was however quite impressed with his non offensive use of the word person.

I don’t want this to turn in to a discussion about grammar, that wasn’t my intention! It is unusual to use pronouns when someone is present, but I’m quite sure I have used gender specific pronouns either in front of someone or in their earshot before though, was my point. Although perhaps not as often as I think I do, if that makes sense.

It must be subjective then, looking at her (Andreja’s) up to date pictures I would have had no idea, apart from potentionally the small scar on the throat which I imagine is quite often covered and which would potentially have another cause.

I haven’t watched all the video BettyDuMonde, but if it was made when Andreja was 19 then that was before she came out as a trans woman, so feelings may be different now.

I've looked at pictures online and in not one picture do I see a female. It's not something that we can be demanded to believe, our natural instincts, our EYES, tell us that it is not true. Women overwhelmingly agree.

I’m sorry, but in no way would I look at Andreja Pejić and see a woman, even when on the catwalk. The walk looks forced and doesn’t have that easy grace that many female models have. But Andreja Pejić has never, to my knowledge, called himself a woman, so I have respect for him.