How can people seriously believe....

[PerverseConverse]

That there is scientific basis to support that transwomen are women and trans men are not women?

Facebook is awash tonight (thanks Posie ) with women saying that this sign in a cafe (pictured) is perfectly ok and that terfs (can I use the full word on here? Sorry if not) can't be feminists as they don't include all women. All women meaning men identifying as women.

I was following a discussion based on a review of the cafe but when I read that there is a "bunch of science behind it" that transwomen are not men I had to give up trying to get my scientific head round what she was trying to say.

Where do people get these ideas from and then claim that science supports them?

I don't want to get into the whole toilet debate here, I'm purely astounded as to how people come up with this and believe it to be supported by science. But then there are people who believe the earth is flat....

It reeks of backlash to women's rights and feminism doesn't it?

All these otherwise educated men have been presented by TRAs with the perfect way to get back at and get one over women on the sly, all the whole claiming to be woke and sensitive.

DUDES WE SEE YOUR MISOGYNY.

Those left wing labour Bros have all signed up to be the TRA enforcers. So pleased with themselves.

One called me a right wing facist for calling Karen white a man. 

I'm glad the sign is pink. It helps attract the attention of the ladybrained.

I've had the row tonight with yet another male friend. I asked him if his belief in a transwoman being a woman would continue if he dated one and discovers they still have a penis. He said he wouldn't be attracted to them anymore or sleep with them. I asked why? Because they have a penis? He said yes, they have a women's penis 😩

I then asked if I identify as a giraffe... will you believe I am a giraffe? He said yes he will support my right to be known as and identify as a giraffe... I asked if I go live in the zoo and demand the rights of other giraffes, can you allow me those to? He said yes he can. I said I would hope if it ever happened you might actually support me in seeking mental health treatment... he said do TW need MH help? I replied yes... some have gender dysphoria 

Then I sent a bunch of links asking can you see anything that might upset women about this... he said no. The links were men who've won women's sporting awards and business awards and men reported in the media as women

So now I just give up. Delusion has taken over the fucking planet.

Off to identify as a giraffe... 🦄 with rainbow hair

Don't listen to the haters who say your neck is not 5 foot long!!

7Days absolutely! No fucking literal violence will be tolerated if anyone says I don't have a 5 foot long neck on here #nodebate #selfidentifyinggiraffe

Name change 

Tape measures are transphobic!

And I hope cis giraffes step back from the high up trees and centre you in distributing the leaves. It's only fair

#5footnecknodebate

If you want to believe something hard enough, you will. Humans use a number of shortcuts in reasoning that are usually efficient but can lead us in to elephant traps. The 'science' behind the TRA position is cherry picked and only conclusions that fit their narrative are used. Any other data is dismissed. Confirmation bias.

The statement that feminism must include ALL women (i.e. transwomen aka men), no t*rfs allowed (therefore excluding women with whom you disagree) is both oxymoronic and just plain stupid.

Materialist I did tell him it was transphobia to reject the ladypenis but he says it isn't because he is attracted to vaginas so while it's still a women's penis he doesn't believe he is transphobic since he still believes it to be a woman's penis.

There's no hope for him is there. 😪

He's also who teaches your secondary school kids. God help them!

Those bloody cis giraffes are heightist! They never bloody assist me in validating my identity and giving me easier access to sanitary towels and smear tests leaves

No he'd definitely not tweet that. He also mentioned he has to trans pupils in his class. Then said... actually I think they might be gay rather than trans.

So I'm not sure he really has a clue on much at all. I'm quite fond of him so feel particularly sad about him being such a lost cause.

At least he conceded that women need female only spaces and suggested he might throw a transwoman out of the toilets if I felt uncomfortable with one in them. Whilst this is sweet... he still can't acknowledge that I don't really want him coming in the women's toilets to throw one out either and the fact that he would might suggest perhaps he himself doesn't see them as women or why would he want to throw one out of the toilets to keep me safe?!

Note: I'm not interested in throwing anyone out of toilets they've already entered tbh. I just want female spaces kept female.

MinecraftHolmes appendix iii does always creep up on me eventually.

It is interesting and distressing that proper serious scientist are unable to see things clearly but in my experience a scientific education does not necessarily avail one of full critical thinking skills or even scientific literacy particularly. Which is a problem in itself.

Arghhhhhhhffs I’ve found a quick way to get people to rethink the “but what harm is it doing going along with people’s identities?” is to state how they’d feel if I identified as a five year old boy. They usually look a bit startled but then say that they’d be happy to treat me as such. I then tell them I am literally a five year old and want to join a reception class and it would be hateful phobic literal violence if they didn’t support my identify and allow me to go to school. They then understand that being polite does have to have boundaries and that no one’s beliefs have a right to infringe or curtail other people’s rights.

is to ask* how they’d feel if I identified as a 5 year old boy.

Then join a rugby team for 5 year olds. Don’t let anyone body shame you if they say it’s not safe!

It’s the lack of clear thinking that scares me most. Scares me. Like Professor Biggs said: ‘this is the generation we have educated.’ users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/FreeSpeechOxford.pdf

But people feel that identifying as the opposite sex is somehow different to identifying as an animal or a child.... because they have a belief in Ladybrain. I kind of admire the logical integrity of giraffe guy! At least he's being consistent. Ridiculous. But consistent.

The belief in Ladybrain is potentially the crux? It's difficult for some people to accept how powerful socialisation can be. I think it makes people uncomfortable that they are a product of socialisation and not intrinsically, authentically themselves. Maybe?

If it was a worker rather than the owner who stuck that on the till I wonder how their boss feels about their attempt to actively discourage customers from buying anything.

Though to be fair if it was my cafe I'd be more worried about accidentally killing customers via food poisoning. Has that counter ever been wiped down?

Sorry to gatecrash but I've been wondering that too about identifying as a child. There are people who do, they are called 'littles.' They really feel when they are in their little state that they have made an age regression. So maybe soon we will have adults in nursery's and sports clubs? I've been trying to think about the difference but after a few days arguing with myself I think it's pretty much the same 

Aaaarghhhhffs you need to identify as your friends teenage daughter and demand he pay for your living expenses.

Just through general chit chat among colleagues belief in ladybrain is as deeply routed as knowledge that the world is round - it's actual science, plus they can evidence it daily. Except the evidence is socialisation and yes, no one can believe socialisation can go that far nor do they want to think they're complicit nor that it's that bloody simple. Many of them are divorced and certainly the way traditional gender roles and attitudes are between the sexes was a part of the issue.

Even a few years ago I believed it, but this was also due to the extreme male brain asd theory (I work in this area).

They also can't square how sexist it is.