Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Think I've lost a friendship because of this

53 replies

ShimmyShimmyYa · 19/10/2018 16:49

Feeling very fragile- friend verbally lashed out at me while we were debating the trans issue; or misogyny issue, as i see it!
I brought it up- more fool me- felt certain he'd be on board
He is someone who is not politically or culturally particularly savvy, but he's not stupid and has 100% integrity so gives a very genuine response to things- not affected by political fashions, what's cool etc.
And he's a kind person- we both are!- and that's what makes it so horrible.
to be fair he understood the issues around self ID pretty swiftly but could not understand why I believe that a post op trans female has no place in a female space; possibly some on here will agree with him.
He could not get his head around the fact that the presence of a post op transwoman could in any way impinge "enough" on born females: "it's not like they can rape you"
I tried to explain that it's not just about rape- it's about peace of mind- it's about an adolescent girl not feeling extremely uncomfortable/frightened by the very manly looking person in the changing room; it's about not trying to suss out if they have a dick or not; it's about me with my menopausal, southerly facing tits not wanting to get undressed in front of a born man. I don't know why that isn't enough and I don't know how else to articulate it. My argument was obviously not compelling as my friend still felt that the TWs needs far outweighed those of the "slight discomfort" that the adolescent girl would feel- suck it up, essentially!
i'm speechless but he's not in a minority, is he?!
he's just delivered an apology but it includes the fact that he's upset that someone like me could be so lacking in empathy and make unsubstatiated attacks on transwomen; it also suggests that I consider how my son would feel if it transpired that he was transsexual. So, bit of a shitty apology- he also included a link to a piece by 3 very "open-minded" liberal feminists who believe in inclusivity cos they're nice, see?! i havent read it it- my nerves can't take it and i guarantee that they are under the age of 30 and don't have daughters.
OK I've vented! i know this isn't really the place for it and don't want to clog up the forum but I'm not putting this on AIBU because I'm most definitely not being unreasonable.
Just feel shitty that my first sticking head above parapet went so badly!

OP posts:
TimeLady · 19/10/2018 16:55

He's viewing it from a male perspective, so probably genuinely doesn't understand. You're a woman withholding consent for males in female spaces and he's a man insisting you're wrong to do so...so what does that make him?

pennydrew · 19/10/2018 16:56

This is not a friend. He has no stake in this whatsoever, and yet he didn’t listen or respect your views or the needs of women at all. Personally I’m always really grateful when an issue outs a friend as a misogynist, then I know they’re not someone I want to be near.

Oh and he is a minority. I have not spoken to one man who responded this way to me. Not my husband, not his friends, not my other male friends of various races, nor my gay male friends.

If you care to respond to his gaslighting bullshit, you might like to remind him
1 you’re not attacking anyone, you’re defending your own rights existing in law and your personal boundaries which should be respected
and 2 you don’t appreciate his misogynistic gaslighting or the attempt at emotional manipulation by dragging your child into it

Or just: fuck off

amandadecabernet · 19/10/2018 16:59

I'm sorry to hear that. Being kind to me would mean he might try to see it from your point of view or at the very least respect your boundaries. I mean I don't have to understand everything about everyone's pov, but I do respect that our lived experience is different, as I suspect you do.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 19/10/2018 16:59

He's a man. He has no idea how girls and women navigate a male dominated world or the way male violence and sexual aggression affect us.

Tallulahwaitingintherain made a brilliant comment yesterday. Maybe this will help your friend understand. I haven't bolded it, but here it is:

Lets do a thought experiment. Let's imagine there's another category of human. They're substantially bigger and stronger than men and immediately distinguishable from you due to an exaggerated brow ridge, pointy shoulders and other physical indications specific to them. They are noticeably more aggressive than men and commit the vast majority of violent crime, much of it, especially sex offences, against men. The majority are sexually interested in men and a substantial minority make it clear that because of this they think of men as a kind of prey. They are politically powerful, better paid than men and pride themselves on being as different from you as possible.

Since you were about 10 years old, you have been regularly sexually harassed and humiliated by these people: at school, at work, on public transport, on the streets. You don't argue back because they're often aggressive, you know they're a lot stronger than you, and because the whole point is that they are getting off on exerting control over you and you are keen to avoid escalating their aggression. You and most men you know have been seriously sexually assaulted by at least one of them on at least one occasion, and you have been in many, many situations where you have been frightened this was going to happen. When you turn on the news, you see reports about men being raped or murdered by them, and when you watch a film or tv drama there's typically an obligatory rape scene in which a man is their victim. You know that many of them enjoy watching porn in which men are violently sexually degraded and you are aware that some of them get off on invading men's privacy by watching or filming you in toilets and changing rooms. You also know that most institutions are run by these people and that if you are harmed by one of them you will have trouble getting anyone to believe or support you. Of course, many of them are perfectly safe and reasonable but there is no way for you to tell who is a risk to you and who isn't.

Do you want these hypothetical people sharing your hospital ward or cell in prison? And can you see why women are concerned about allowing male people in our spaces even though we are completely unfussed about sharing with women who have a different skin colour, cultural background or sexual orientation than ourselves?

amandadecabernet · 19/10/2018 17:01

And it's okay to feel shitty when people you think cared about you treat you like your feelings don't matter and tell you you're wrong about things that are completely outside their sphere.

UpstartCrow · 19/10/2018 17:03

"it's not like they can rape you" is a shitty thing to say to a friend when you are talking about boundaries. You have no way of knowing if a trans person is post op or not anyway.
(And you aren't clogging up the forum.)

DragonGoby · 19/10/2018 17:04

At least he understood the self ID thing OP. I've fallen out with my lovely, kind, intelligent brother because he supports the whole shebang, self ID and all.

ElanoraHeights · 19/10/2018 17:06

Prawnofthepatriarchy That's a very powerful thought experiment. Thanks for sharing and to the original poster for coming up with it.

I have lost friends over this too. I find it hard to be friends with someone who can so easily throw women under the bus.

ShimmyShimmyYa · 19/10/2018 17:06

Thanks TimeLady, you're right, it's clear that he genuinely doesn't get it- in all honesty i was as shaken by the manner in which he didnt get it- pretty vicious!
maybe i should have added that he is a middle aged gay man, no kids- he did say he was fine with transmales in the locker room so i guess he's fair! though i did point out that he doesn't speak for all men- surely they've a right to their space too?
my male partner gets it though- he's a father, of course, and maybe that plays a part

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 19/10/2018 17:08

"he did say he was fine with transmales in the locker room so i guess he's fair"

It's not fair though is it? A trans male is not likely to be physically bigger or statistically more likely to be violent.

bluetitsaretits · 19/10/2018 17:10

Sorry this has left you feeling bad OP, I can sympathise as I have lost a good friend over it too.

It can be tough when a friend fails to show any empathy on such a sensitive subject, but I have realised that most people that have never experienced sexual violence or the type of discomfort you described just don't understand how it can affect us.

I also think that a lot of people don't think very deeply about things that don't obviously impact them personally -life is busy, we can all be a bit self centred at times and we are all only human.

For my own peace of mind I have to try to remember that so I can let go of my anger towards those that just don't 'get it' but are otherwise good people. I will reserve my wrath for the AWAs who are pushing this agenda, not the poor shmucks that have been swept up in the nonsense.

Don't be too hard on yourself either, it's an emotional minefield and I'm sure we've all had those moments when we haven't expressed ourselves as well as we would have wished.

Remember you are not alone
Flowers

Skarlet2018 · 19/10/2018 17:13

Your freind does not respect your right to say no.

I think I'd respond along those lines. It's not for him to decide who gets to see you naked, no means no. End of.

Materialist · 19/10/2018 17:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Materialist · 19/10/2018 17:20

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Petillant · 19/10/2018 17:20

I personally don’t like sharing changing rooms even with other women! I would like a space all to myself. I don’t like to shower at the gym, I just pull my jeans and top back on and shower at home. My DH says he wouldn’t like to share a changing room with anyone of the opposite sex. He was laughing and calling me the “willy shriveller” because last week at the gym I stopped outside the male changing room and called, “are you in there?” He said a couple of guys willies shrank at the sound of a female voice and they looked scared that a female might walk in on them. He gets it.

Given that I HAVE to share changing rooms, I personally would not object to someone who was post-op (I can’t use the word ’trans’ because I don’t believe humans can change sex). But I wouldn’t feel I had the right to tell anyone else not to object.

I don’t think you lack empathy, he does. And here we go again, women must have empathy, be nice, be kind. Seems to be the only argument, if you can even call it an argument. Don’t feel shitty.

NormalPeople · 19/10/2018 17:21

I fell out horribly with a very kind (female) friend of mine over this OP. It still upsets me.

ShimmyShimmyYa · 19/10/2018 17:22

oh wow! thanks so much for the flurry of responses- i massively appreciate them.
I have to go out now- i wish i didnt! i honestly didnt expect much response at all but i will definitely pore over them when i can
i feel a lot happier- it can be a very lonely place being GC

OP posts:
Oldstyle · 19/10/2018 17:22

Sorry you are upset Shimmy - I know the feeling although I haven't had as abrupt or insensitive response as that. It's very likely that being gay and middle-aged gets in the way of him ever having/needing to consider a female vantage point. But I wouldn't agree that he is kind. Kindness would mean that he took care to really listen and responded respectfully to your concerns. As for the acceptance of TMs, well it's no skin off his nose either way. They are not a threat in any sense and men do not have the same sense of vulnerability when naked in front of women - even if it's a woman with her breasts chopped off. Have a look at this wonderful video from twitter. Role models! www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=6&v=AUScSJ1e2To

gendercritter · 19/10/2018 17:27

I think it's absolutely soul-destroying getting this kind of response. Two friends who I was sure would be gc very much aren't, it turns out. I am so disappointed in them - particularly the one who's a scientist and who wrote something to me about hate speech and trans-hating lesbians.

I have to remember that not everyone has thought about the issue beyond being kind and inclusive. And I want friends with different opinions in life. It has made me wary of talking to more people about the issue but equally I have got a good group of friends who are gc and who do get it, so I don't feel alone

Flowers and I hope he gets it one day. Many men never will.

ShimmyShimmyYa · 19/10/2018 17:29

i really do have to run but couldnt resist speed reading responses- thank you, brilliant people- excellent points and warmth from everyone- we're not exactly a nasty bunch on this forum, are we?!!

OP posts:
Hoppinggreen · 19/10/2018 17:34

He’s Male and he cannot with the best will in the world understand the female need to constantly look for threats from an early age.
However kind etc he is he doesn’t have that experience and can’t relate to it ( like Transwomen funnily enough)

amandadecabernet · 19/10/2018 17:39

Without knowing your friend I suspect he doesn't mind transmen in his space because it makes him feel cool and edgy and super-tolerant and dare I say a teeeensy bit titillated by their presence. He's giving himself a woke-bro achievement award: everyone wins!
I've known more than a few gay men who love the idea of women's bodies and feel okay objectifying them (see drag) because they don't want to have sex with them so it's not 'bad' and doesn't count. (The same rule for if they profess to be disgusted by vaginas.)
Part of this problem is privileged people patting themselves on the back. 'Look at me, being cool with it all!'

pennydrew · 19/10/2018 17:40

One thing... I’ve become closer friends with GC women I didn’t know were GC. You might lose some, and you might gain some too! Join a local rad fem group?

ILuvBirdsEye · 19/10/2018 17:41

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

2BorNot2Bvocal · 19/10/2018 17:46

Point him at twitter.com/JonnnyBest, also a gay man who has come round to Stonewall not being reasonable and now speaks out in favour of reasonable debate.

Swipe left for the next trending thread