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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Think I've lost a friendship because of this

53 replies

ShimmyShimmyYa · 19/10/2018 16:49

Feeling very fragile- friend verbally lashed out at me while we were debating the trans issue; or misogyny issue, as i see it!
I brought it up- more fool me- felt certain he'd be on board
He is someone who is not politically or culturally particularly savvy, but he's not stupid and has 100% integrity so gives a very genuine response to things- not affected by political fashions, what's cool etc.
And he's a kind person- we both are!- and that's what makes it so horrible.
to be fair he understood the issues around self ID pretty swiftly but could not understand why I believe that a post op trans female has no place in a female space; possibly some on here will agree with him.
He could not get his head around the fact that the presence of a post op transwoman could in any way impinge "enough" on born females: "it's not like they can rape you"
I tried to explain that it's not just about rape- it's about peace of mind- it's about an adolescent girl not feeling extremely uncomfortable/frightened by the very manly looking person in the changing room; it's about not trying to suss out if they have a dick or not; it's about me with my menopausal, southerly facing tits not wanting to get undressed in front of a born man. I don't know why that isn't enough and I don't know how else to articulate it. My argument was obviously not compelling as my friend still felt that the TWs needs far outweighed those of the "slight discomfort" that the adolescent girl would feel- suck it up, essentially!
i'm speechless but he's not in a minority, is he?!
he's just delivered an apology but it includes the fact that he's upset that someone like me could be so lacking in empathy and make unsubstatiated attacks on transwomen; it also suggests that I consider how my son would feel if it transpired that he was transsexual. So, bit of a shitty apology- he also included a link to a piece by 3 very "open-minded" liberal feminists who believe in inclusivity cos they're nice, see?! i havent read it it- my nerves can't take it and i guarantee that they are under the age of 30 and don't have daughters.
OK I've vented! i know this isn't really the place for it and don't want to clog up the forum but I'm not putting this on AIBU because I'm most definitely not being unreasonable.
Just feel shitty that my first sticking head above parapet went so badly!

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 23/10/2018 12:42

Jonny Best Articles may be of interest, he was the director of Queer Up North:

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/calling-all-gay-men-women-need-you-to-speak-up-please-read-this-9df277ecb59e

medium.com/@JonnnyBest/the-story-of-my-first-brush-with-trans-activism-and-what-i-learned-3ef13e31fd37

Also worth encouraging people to read & consider the petition to Stonewall that Jonny Best and others started, especially the comments:

its still open and running!
www.ipetitions.com/petition/dear-stonewall-please-reconsider-your-approach

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 23/10/2018 12:43

You could point out that if he isn't willing to have sex with transmen he's a hopeless transphobe. Because lesbians are being told to have PIV sex with men who identify as women or be ostracized from LGBT+ circles.

In universities, and among the young generally, this is a real threat. Turning down a transwoman can be social death.

Gay men are not subject to the same pressure from transmen. Male versus female socialization. Perhaps if they were it would be a game changer.

I've seen older lesbians, particularly Americans, grieving and furious about the lack of empathy and sheer callousness of the response of gay men to their plight.

They remember the AIDS years, when lesbians selflessly nursed dying men while the world turned its back. Now, when lesbians need their support, gay men are nowhere to be found.

ProfessoressWoland · 23/10/2018 12:52

Personally, I don't think examples of bikers or straight men infiltrating gay groups work, simply because men on average will never understand the disadvantage and fear women experience in comparable situations, or the fact that it's a life-long reality for us.
I think the wokebros understand quicker when you educate them on the difference between early vs late transitioning, HSTS vs AGP types, because they are hung up on this notion that they are defending someone who is vulnerable.
Send him Kay Brown's essay The Invisible Transsexual www.transkids.us/invisible.html . Mention Karen White and Ian Huntley. These two are in prison. If they weren't, would he be happy for them to have access to women's spaces? I don't think he realises the range of people he is defending. Most woke blokes don't - or they don't care, in which case they can fuck off, frankly.

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