Think I've lost a friendship because of this

[ShimmyShimmyYa]

Feeling very fragile- friend verbally lashed out at me while we were debating the trans issue; or misogyny issue, as i see it!
I brought it up- more fool me- felt certain he'd be on board
He is someone who is not politically or culturally particularly savvy, but he's not stupid and has 100% integrity so gives a very genuine response to things- not affected by political fashions, what's cool etc.
And he's a kind person- we both are!- and that's what makes it so horrible.
to be fair he understood the issues around self ID pretty swiftly but could not understand why I believe that a post op trans female has no place in a female space; possibly some on here will agree with him.
He could not get his head around the fact that the presence of a post op transwoman could in any way impinge "enough" on born females: "it's not like they can rape you"
I tried to explain that it's not just about rape- it's about peace of mind- it's about an adolescent girl not feeling extremely uncomfortable/frightened by the very manly looking person in the changing room; it's about not trying to suss out if they have a dick or not; it's about me with my menopausal, southerly facing tits not wanting to get undressed in front of a born man. I don't know why that isn't enough and I don't know how else to articulate it. My argument was obviously not compelling as my friend still felt that the TWs needs far outweighed those of the "slight discomfort" that the adolescent girl would feel- suck it up, essentially!
i'm speechless but he's not in a minority, is he?!
he's just delivered an apology but it includes the fact that he's upset that someone like me could be so lacking in empathy and make unsubstatiated attacks on transwomen; it also suggests that I consider how my son would feel if it transpired that he was transsexual. So, bit of a shitty apology- he also included a link to a piece by 3 very "open-minded" liberal feminists who believe in inclusivity cos they're nice, see?! i havent read it it- my nerves can't take it and i guarantee that they are under the age of 30 and don't have daughters.
OK I've vented! i know this isn't really the place for it and don't want to clog up the forum but I'm not putting this on AIBU because I'm most definitely not being unreasonable.
Just feel shitty that my first sticking head above parapet went so badly!

Hoppinggreen the thing is this is not 'the best will in the world', this is a man who lashed out at a woman with whom he professes to be friends. Goodwill might look like someone saying 'Ok, I see how your perspective might be different, we can agree to disagree.'

I don't care who he is, a man who doesn't respect a woman's boundaries is wrong. I do not give them a special pass for being male and not getting it.
This is no different from men who say they were 'getting mixed signals'. This is why we have language. Listen to what we say don't just railroad through it because we're not men and you think our words aren't as important as whatever you want.

pennydrew hear hear! I just commented on another thread where someone had been leafleting and had excellent feedback from the public. It was so positive, it really gave me energy. It's unfortunate as the op says that this experience comes so soon after revealing herself.
Anyone want to join us at the OBJECT activism meeting in London in December? PM me! :) www.objectnow.org/

I had a similar experience with a male friend who is exploring his sexuality. He couldn't understand why I won't support self-id when I support gay rights. He comes from the stance of "we're all a bit bisexual/crossgender" and struggles to understand that it's actually nothing to do with that. I don't want to have to share a dressing room with a man who may or may not self-identify as a woman just because he says he is a woman. I don't want a law that normalises men wearing dresses loitering in women-only spaces. For clarity, I'm not saying transwomen are pervy men and I'm not trying to deny the existence of gender dysphoria, but I'm against a reform that creates these opportunities for predatory MEN. I'm in my mid-forties and I've experienced enough misogyny and casual violence against women to know that we're going down a dangerous path.
This whole thing has passed me by as I've been dealing with illness and bereavement. I only realised what's going on this week, and I find it depressing that we're having to go over old ground re women's safety, instead of focusing our efforts on truly progressive things like breaking down gender expectations.

It's possible that gay guys with no children may not be best placed to understand girls' and women's perspectives on this issue, as I've also found from personal experience. I have heard from such sources that women who want sex-segregated spaces are merely "unable to see anything from other people's perspectives". I find this pretty funny, as I wonder if the individual who made this assertion has ever in his life read a book written by a woman or watched a series/film made by women, for example. He's possibly not au fait with "double consciousness".

Like you, OP, I was amazed how much sleep I lost over the fact that my (straight, male) best friend couldn't understand why women might be uncomfortable with a penis in our changing room WITHOUT OUR CONSENT (although he himself would not feel comfortable having sex with a trans woman, post-op or otherwise; but y'know, he's a man, so...).

It's most odd to realise that this hypothetical question can cast such a shadow over a relationship. There's something so disconcerting about knowing that a loved one doesn't care enough to support your "no"; I am quite sure this would change if they had a little girl. I reckon this lack of respect for women's boundaries and inability to care about our fears and concerns will show up in other ways if brushed under the carpet. I've curbed my emotional investment in the aforementioned friendship and given myself some distance to grieve the loss I feel over it. This seems overdramatic, but it feels impossible to do otherwise. Of course I still care about the friend in question, but there are now limits on my part, as I know that when the chips are down, he's not completely in my corner.
If you come up with a better way to heal your own friendship without compromising yourself, please do let mumsnet know, ShimmyShimmmyYa!

As PP have said, he's a MAN deciding what WOMEN should be comfortable with, when it's never going to affect him. I'm afraid that's what I'd say to him, and I'd write off the friendship.

He's still locked in the mindset of automatically backing the minority in all cases. Once he engages brain he'll come around. In time. Maybe.

EllariaSand just my pov but I'm over men having to have daughters or whatever to understand the concerns of others. He isn't trans but has no problem letting his heart bleed for the poor transfolk.

'I am quite sure this would change if they had a little girl.' You don't magic up compassion by fathering kids, my abusive dad being a classic example. He was super-protective of the girls in the family because he said he knew what was on the minds of young men (eurgh, creepy) and all was revealed years later when I found out he'd been sexually abusing loads of the girls he said he wanted to protect.

Respecting boundaries is a choice you make if you respect other people. The troubling thing about being a feminist is that once the scales fall from your eyes you realise how many men prioritise even their most trivial, oblique and theoretical desires ('Women with penises must be allowed in women's prisons because I say so!') over your consent.

Definitely feel you there, amandadecabernet

EllariaSand I appreciate it. :)

Vagina-free folk need to roll their sleeves up and shovel some emotional shit. :)

I tried to have a conversation with my sister in private,( her husband is vile and she does as he tells her) I was explaining what was happening and was she interested in filling in the GRC form. She started shouting at me and her husband came rushing in and asked what was going on so she told him. He got right in my face and started shouting at me to the point that I thought he was going to hit me. I stepped back and my sister walked over and slapped me and said I should be ashamed. I told them to leave my home and they went. All that time my husband said nothing. My sister has been bullied by her husband for over 30 years. I probable won't see my sister again (we used to be really close) but the bit that hurts me the most was my husband's reaction

I was of your friend‘s opinion and the only reason I have come around is respecting that other women have voiced objections and feel their boundaries are violated and also considering women from other cultural backgrounds who don‘t seem to be given any say in this.
What you can do is cite the few available scientific data on the matter that suggest that male criminal including male violent criminal patterns persist in female to male post-OP male transsexuals. I think it is, therefore, fair to exclude them from female spaces unless and until solid scientific data show they do not show male pattern violence.
I‘d tell your friend this, if I were you, and else agree to disagree. I believe that friendships can continue even in the face of strong disagreement on important policy issues.

WetWang maybe your sister is a transwidow in waiting, which is why her husband took it so personally...

Funny how men understand fear of the same sex when it comes to the cliche of them showering in prison or being locked in a cell with a cellmate twice their size.

Many of them understand unease if asked to walk through a large group of men of a different colour from them.

Those fears are founded on homophobia and racism but no one ever seems to call them out on it. It's okay for them to feel uneasy even when it's not rational or backed up by evidence but women just need to suck it up despite our fears being rational and based on experience and evidence and the fact that our encounters won't be same sex.

Men understand entirely the power dynamic that comes with size and the protection that that size provides those who are larger. It's just laziness of thinking that stops them understanding that that power dynamic will nearly always work in favour of transwomen over women and that alone can be intimidating. Men may use penises to rape but they use strength to intimidate, harrass and beat and transwomen retain the benefit of size.

deepwatersolo you could be right. He's into porn and really vile stuff, I don't know how my sister copes.

I'm sorry to hear this. its really hard and I've had a couple of responses that were deeply shocking, you are not alone.

I can't really disclose much of what happended, but I've had a man tell me "woman adult human female" is an attack on transpeople. yeah, crazy huh, I have to watch what context I refer to myself in now, or I might be attacking someone.

lets be clear. You don't want to change infront of someone of the opposite sex. Neither do I and that's your right. You have a right to privacy and dignity.

Part of this problem is privileged people patting themselves on the back. 'Look at me, being cool with it all!'

This is the main attitude I have come across too. My comment following such a declaration is usually "you don't get to decide what other women are comfortable with" (ie sharing changing rooms or toilets with males).

wetwang so sorry to hear what you're going through with your sister. My sister was married to an emotionally abusive man for many years and it ruined our relationship. Thankfully she is free of him now, but it has taken us years to really rebuild.
All you can do is step back, take care of yourself and be there for her when the shit hits the fan.

Hello, I'm back from a long weekend without wi-fi.
Really poor form to start a thread then bugger off!!
I'm so heartened by your responses and also sad that my experience is not unique.
Thanks for the brilliant analogy; for the links to twitter and the singing ladies!
I'm pretty sure my friend has now back-pedalled on the self ID thing (ie he's now pro self ID) but can't bear to read anything he's sent to "educate" me: I noticed that he'd used the word "ciswoman" and I am not interested in the ramblings of someone who uses that word.
He's gone! I've lost him down the rabbit hole.
Good suggestion upthread on finding rad fem groups- I'm wondering how to actually do this? I did google a local feminist group and on their homepage they suggest Mumsnet feminist forum as a place to go- I'm thinking that that's a good sign!
The other thing is that I don't actually consider myself to be rad fem so might feel a bit of an imposter, but i guess i'll be open about that and if i'm not "right", so be it.

From Twitter (unknown author)

Op have a look at www.objectnow.org/ and see how you feel about the five key issues. OBJECT work with lots of other radfem groups. Pm me if you have any questions.

I love that thought experiment, that's absolutely great! I'm def going to use that, thank you.

OP I'm sorry you've had this horrible experience, this guy seems really lacking in empathy. I've lost a friend over this too, not so unpleasantly but it still hurts. But as someone else said, I've made some new connections and feel great to be sticking to what is truly important to me.

You're not alone!

Another analogy is asking a gay man if it's OK for any man to identify himself as gay, despite never having had sex with a man, put on a pink cravat and a camp walk to express his gaybess, and attend any space reserved as a safe space for gay men. And to know that if he felt uncomfortable about that, or expressed unease, he would be the one asked to leave, not the new member if the group who seems to be taking to piss.

He needs an analogy he can understand. Ask him if he'd go to a biker bar frequented by Hells Angels. If not, why not?

Then tell him, for a woman, everywhere is a bit like that biker bar. You've no idea whether those bikers are going to be lovely people or punch you in the face.

Or ask him how he'd feel about using a communal shower in a male prison where he's no idea whether there is a threat to his safety or where it might come from.

Then tell him that, for women, everywhere is a bit like that communal shower in a male prison.

He might get it then. Maybe.

Pamspeople hmm, that's a very interesting idea. Despite the cozy idea that gay fellas love gals, they're not super keen on women in cruisy spaces. But surely trans folk are okay considering how sad it makes them to be excluded. And I'm what I say I am, 'get over it' etc so...