We’re Still Here Conference 8th September: A report from the inside

[TheHarpySings]

Hi all

First off, I’m a regular poster, have been here for years under various usernames, it I’m posting here on a name change as I don’t want this traced to me.

On 8th September there was a conference held in London a Bloomsbury Baptist Church which was called We’re Still Here, which featured a variety of panels and workshops and was attended by many prominent people in the pro-GRA reform camp.

I decided to attend to find out what was being said as it was clear that they did not want anyone to attend that wasn’t a TRA or an ally.

What follows are my notes from the day. But first a few notes on attendance:

There were probably 80-100 people in attendance. Overwhelmingly white. Mainly older transwomen. A couple of transmen. Some Mermaids delegates. Some fellow travellers/ allies. And me.

Okay. So here’s my notes

1. Health Panel: Chair was Dr Ben Vincent of GIRES.

Part of the discussion on this panel was around GPs reluctance to prescribe “bridging hormones”. GPs are reluctant/afraid to prescribe them for liability reasons. Apparently a brand of T-Gel was withdrawn and GPs are reluctant to switch brands.

There was then a bit of chatter about whether a person’s sex was relevant for healthcare stats.

Then there was discussion about trans children. Dr Vincent was very scathing about GIDS-said there was disgusting and unethical practices. BV spoke about dispelling the myths about desistance and the myths of ROGD- BV called this “concern trolling, malicious and ethically bankrupt”. BV would like a review of the whole system.

Then Dr Vincent said that they’d received a review copy of “Born in your own body” edited by Heather Brunskell-Evans and Michele Moore. BV is reviewing it for some Royal College and said “I will tear it a new arsehole”

Also (and they didn't want this tweeted) BV is also planning a book called Terf Wars which will be a “rigorous takedown of terf arguments” which is getting serialised as articled in some peer reviewed journal- I’m sorry but I couldn’t catch which one.

Dr Stuart Lorimer, of the Tavistock and Portman who was also a panellist- said that ROGD is “evidence free”.

There was a great deal of discussion as to the health risks for transwomen taking certain brands of hormones- one person said they knew three other people who’d died taking them, and they’d nearly died as well.

1) Health Panel:
Chair was Dr Ben Vincent of GIRES.

Part of the discussion on this panel was around GPs reluctance to prescribe “bridging hormones”. GPs are reluctant/afraid to prescribe them for liability reasons. Apparently a brand of T-Gel was withdrawn and GPs are reluctant to switch brands.

There was then a bit of chatter about whether a person’s sex was relevant for healthcare stats.

Then there was discussion about trans children. Dr Vincent was very scathing about GIDS-said there was disgusting and unethical practices. BV spoke about dispelling the myths about desistance and the myths of ROGD- BV called this “concern trolling, malicious and ethically bankrupt”. BV would like a review of the whole system.

Then Dr Vincent said that they’d received a review copy of “Born in your own body” edited by Heather Brunskell-Evans and Michele Moore. BV is reviewing it for some Royal College and said “I will tear it a new arsehole”

Dr Ben Vincent describes influence on BMJ, GPs, NHS etc:
6/7/17
"I’m really delighted that a team (of which I was a member) comprised entirely of trans voices has been published in the BMJ (the British Medical Journal). Our article provides basic information for GPs providing healthcare to transgender people."
genderben.com/2017/07/06/i-am-your-trans-patient/

BMJ article: 'I am your trans patient'
BMJ 2017; 357 doi: doi.org/10.1136/bmj.j2963 (Published 30 June 2017) Emma-Ben Lewis, clinical teaching associate, Ben Vincent, medical sociologist, Alex Brett, Sarah Gibson, Reubs J Walsh, developmental neuropsychologist:
(extract)
"Thinking outside the “M/F” tickbox
You’ll need to think outside the tick-box about what’s relevant for my body: is a smear test really necessary for all women (and only women)? Or is it for everyone with a cervix? The same goes for prostate and breast screening, and for any aspect of medicine where there’s a distinction between how you’d treat a “male” and how you’d treat a “female.” Those categories have never been the whole story—trans and intersex people have always been here—but the medical literature often oversimplifies, to our detriment. Knowing that I’m trans doesn’t tell you anything about my primary and secondary sexual characteristics; but then neither does knowing—or assuming—that I’m not. If you need to ask, check whether I prefer to talk about my body in a particular way to minimise discomfort—I might want to avoid certain words, for example. Although I might be comfortable talking about my breasts, or going to get a routine prostate screening, it’s also possible that I might want you to talk about my “chest” instead, or help me find ways to engage with the men’s health unit that won’t cause me tremendous distress." (continues)

"Trans-specific care
I might come to you for help with medical transition. Most likely this will just mean routine prescription and management of my hormone therapy; but sometimes it’ll be my first disclosure. It’s okay if you’re not familiar with the care pathways: but you should know that they exist and where to find them, and take steps to move me onto them swiftly.
Speed is particularly important if I’m just starting puberty, when even the slightest delay can have disastrous effects as I’m forced to live with permanent changes caused by inappropriate hormones, and through the turmoil of adolescence while those changes are happening.

Be aware that NHS gender services are hugely over-subscribed, and the current long waiting times—sometimes years—can be excruciating; but if you stay engaged with the process and keep me updated, you’ll help me to avoid some of that pain. In fact, you’ll be supporting me to access specialist treatment with one of the highest satisfaction rates of any branch of medicine.

We are your trans patients. We are one in 100 of your patients. You won’t always know who we are—two of us have written for this series before, when our trans status wasn’t relevant, so we didn’t bring it up. We know it’s difficult sometimes when your systems struggle to include us, or the literature you rely on doesn’t tell you how to treat us. But we’re here, we exist; and we’re counting on you." (continues)

"Footnotes
Competing interests: We have read and understood BMJ policy on declaration of interests and declare the following: none."

www.bmj.com/content/357/bmj.j2963

We are one in 100 of your patients.

Roughly 650,000 babies are born in this country each year. And there are mothers for everyone.

Maternity sets ups the course of healthcare for the rest of life and poor healthcare in maternity for mothers can have knock on effects for both the child and the mother.

These patients are concentrated in one department. And the NHS can not get a lot of basics right and are ridiculously over stretched.

Acting like the trans community are somehow seconds class to everyone else pisses me off.

Mental health provision is non existant in some places and areas.

If we can improve both of those it would have an enormous impact.

Crap about 'cervix havers' is nonsense. It's unworkable, dehumanising and elitist. Not everyone knows what one is but people do know what a woman is.

I've repeatedly had NHS staff miss crucial points about my severe anxiety. It's usually because they are overworked and don't have time to read notes properly or because it simply hasn't been communicated. It's awful, and harmful to me but I get it. It shouldn't be like that. But the way to fix it, isn't to issue demands and emotional blackmail.

Speed is particularly important if I’m just starting puberty, when even the slightest delay can have disastrous effects as I’m forced to live with permanent changes caused by inappropriate hormones, and through the turmoil of adolescence while those changes are happening

But no worries about the permanent effects of cross sex hormones (which is what I would call inapproporiate) or puberty blockers

There was a point by Placemats on another thread which I think is worth repeating as it really struck a chord with me about the safeguarding of children

"Oh and we are meant to believe that children will suffer to such an extent regarding gender dysphoria that they need medical attention.

However, on the other hand, an adult doesn't need to change anything."

Speed is particularly important if I’m just starting puberty, when even the slightest delay can have disastrous effects as I’m forced to live with permanent changes caused by inappropriate hormones

Jazz Jennings complications were a direct result from having puberty blockers so early.

Not sure if anyone's linked to this already but the recent posts made me think of it:

www.transgendertrend.com/puberty-blockers-safe/

I have one transgender patient out of a population of around 5000. That BMJ article is largely nonsense and as doctors our whole practice is centred around evidence based medicine. Sure, some things I do as a GP are based on anecdotal information rather than high quality data (my current favourite is putting duct tape on a verucca) but when it comes to something as significant as prescribing off label drugs to stop puberty I will not be doing it as a stop gap measure until someone sees the patient. That service is not commissioned and is outside my range of competence. While I would not want to cause any unnecessary distress to any of my patients, we know the suicide claim is overinflated and the core of medical ethics must always be: First, do no harm.

I've repeatedly had NHS staff miss crucial points about my severe anxiety. It's usually because they are overworked and don't have time to read notes properly or because it simply hasn't been communicated.

By way of an additional example (there are many)
My gynaecoogical cancer was found during IVF. I had a total hysterectomy as medical neccessity.
I have had a number of subsequent CT scans and it is a requirement to ask (for very good reasons), "are you pregnant?" and to follow this up with a number of questions to be sure of this, "are you sure?" "when was your last period?" "have you had unprotected sex since then?" etc

I used to struggle with this. I could answer the first two, but further questions were distressing.

This is a common experience. There are often discussions amongst women affected about what might be done to prevent the distress of the woman who absolutely is sure she is not pregnant and for whom this is a cause of deep grief.

As Red says, the radiographer asking the questions is inevitably & absolutely overworked and has a matter of seconds to pick up a file and set up the appropriate scan.

It was awful but I got it and after a while found a way to pre-empt the follow-up questions which acknowledged both the department's needs as well as mine.

The bigger picture is always important but so too taking care of yourself where you might.

Crap about 'cervix havers' is nonsense. It's unworkable, dehumanising and elitist. Not everyone knows what one is but people do know what a woman is.

Its dangerous.
There is a report on the news today about the increasing numbers of women who are not having smear tests.
Speaking clearly about women's bodies is a well-accepted central focus in raising awareness of gyny cancers.
Raising awareness has a significant impact on early diagnosis which improves outcomes for women

I’m sorry for your experiences R0wan and wishing you all the best.

R0wantrees a close friend of mine was reffered for IVF. After the first attempt failed, she was told that she might be better to just keep trying natural because you never know.

She was have IVF because she'd had her tubes removed and it was impossible to conceive naturally.

My SIL had a baby after having a very complex pregnancy and was in hospital. She was to be given medication for her additional health needs, my BIL happened to be there and knew what they were about to give her. He went loopy as said medication could have killed her. If he was a doctor and hadn't realised...

I've heard loads of similar stories: not necessarily relating to woman. But the point is that crucial is that these type of mistakes are happening with such alarming frequency it seems inconceivable that its not doing widespread harm. Patients are regularly correcting their doctors about basis points regarding their own care and that's just not right.

There was a thread the other week about doctors not knowing the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes which was horrifying to read.

Poppyred85 thank you, I was very fortunate that mine was caught early and so speak from a truly privileged position of being five years away from diagnosis.

I can talk about it now because its less raw for me. I know how many women are similarly affected and can't.

I've heard loads of similar stories: not necessarily relating to woman. But the point is that crucial is that these type of mistakes are happening with such alarming frequency it seems inconceivable that its not doing widespread harm. Patients are regularly correcting their doctors about basis points regarding their own care and that's just not right.

Absolutely, like you I am aware of similar and many examples.

Its terrifying to hear the examples such as your SIL's which are life and death situations.

Does anyone on this thread actually live in the City of London? The comments at the conference about the Chief Exec and Chief Legal Officer are extremely damaging to the Corporation and I am trying to get the Corporation to take this seriously but I don't live there so am no one's constituent.

VERY few people actually live in the city of london. Its only 1 sq mile. 300,000 work there but it has a resident population of less than 10,000

I've seen it left off stats before for this reason.

Obviously if you happen to be an individual who does, this means you have disproportionate influence...

(James Morton) said the TRAs need to build allies in mainstream women and children’s organisations so it looks like they care about them

I can't help noticing the way the Woman's Equality Party relies on 'indispensible' and active volunteers to not only do the work in some local branches, but to reach out to other local branches. They keep appearing in photos of meetings far and wide.

It's as if they have an agenda to steer things in a certain direction and root out opposition.

It's an own goal, however, when one of them tweets about removing or discouraging women from joining WEP, if those women won't accept that TWAW

twitter.com/antoniamichele7/status/984791450423578624

Gosh wasn’t expecting that! Puts lights on.

Just catching up on this thread

This report is a significant insight into how some TRAs intend to continue their campaigning.

It's really worth being aware of the intended tactics and focus.

I shared a section today on the AIBU Ian Huntly thread about how TRAs in Sctland have been so succesful and amongst the comments by James Morton is what I think a very significant comment:

(extract)
James Morton talked about how they can get rid of “gender” markers on things like IT systems and places where it isn’t relevant- apparently GDPR might be able to help them here.

JM’s campaigning tips were to gain trust in the local community- and to approach moderate feminists, “correct misconceptions and forgive any ignorance they may have displayed”. They want to gain trust and make themselves likeable.

Apparently small acts like helping to campaign about period poverty or retweeting the local branch of Women’s Aid will make a difference and result in some reciprocation. They want to make it look like they care about Women's issues so they don’t appear threatening

James Morton's fingerprints are everywhere in Scotland - prisons, schools, women's shelters.

Charities applying for funding from scot gvt to support victims of violence, now have to prove they have a trans inclusive policy. If they don't, they don't get the money. Morton then cites the fact that shelters are trans inclusive as evidence of no problem.

see yesterday's London's Women's March led by Munroe Bergdorf and Dawn Butler MP:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3483242-Womens-March-London-says-trans-voices-should-be-elevated-over-womens-voices

Oh and in case you’re wondering: not one fucking word was uttered about the possibilities of self-ID being abused and how this could be mitigated or prevented. No one said anything about safeguarding.

They don’t give a shit about women and girls.

current thread discussing Dr Julia Long's question about child exploitation to Munore Bergdorf at a recent event and the subsequent attempts to silence concerns.

OP HappyDappy wrote
"Julia Long was asked to leave the venue, after asking MB if it was normal that an 11yr old child dancing in front of adults, has money thrown at them by grown men. This was at Transmission & was deemed an offensive question....video footage on twitter of the incident.....worth a watch, sorry I can’t link to it but hope someone else can."

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd4UCemsC6s&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop

LangCleg's comment:
"How did the scandal of TV entertainers grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of Catholic priests grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

How did the scandal of on-street gangs grooming and exploiting children get so bad before anything was done?

Because if you create a sacred caste of any group and silence anyone asking questions about individuals on behalf of the sacred caste, abusers will see, infiltrate, and groom and exploit children. That''s how.

It's just tangential to me that the current group above criticism is extremist transactivism. I couldn't give a shit which group is ignoring the safeguarding of children - TV entertainers, Catholic priests, transactivists - it's all the same to me.

I will not be told I cannot point out safeguarding failures when I see them. "

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3512177-Julia-Long-asking-Munro-Bergdorf-about-child-exploitation

Object! article detailing Safeguarding issues by HANNAH HARRISON
concludes:
"The fabrication of the 'transgender' child (or the child ‘Drag Queen’) is similar to the creation of the child 'sex worker'. These misleading labels are placed on ordinary children in order to disguise and excuse the exploitation of these children in the fulfillment of an adult agenda – in both cases, to cater to the sexual interests of adult men.

The 'trans rights' movement reframes the removal of children's safeguarding as granting children 'freedom of expression'. This is similar to paedophiles advocating for the 'sexual rights of children'. In both cases, the proponents of these movements are actually interested in promoting men's 'sexual rights'."

www.objectnow.org/news/2019/1/15/trans-kids-paedophilia-in-drag?

Christine Burns said that children have “gender awareness” from around the age of 2. The general consensus was that a child who articulates that they want to change their gender should be able to- no matter how young they are.

CB also said that we “baby” children in our culture, whereas in other countries 12 year olds are considered old enough to fight in wars. I DON’T KNOW WHY SHE THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD COMPARISON.

This is nuts. Why has someone like CB gone from campaigning for employment rights to actively promoting the transing of children? Safety in numbers?

In today's Independent the organiser of the 'We're Still Here' event, Jane Fae disparagingly accuses women who post on the Feminism and Women's Rights chat board (since it seems most TRAs are oblivious to the existence of other MN boards) of being 'radicalised by the far right'

(extract)
" One UK feminist splinter has made it their mission to warn of the trans menace. On the BBC just a fortnight ago, a leading member of this group explained how the biggest threat facing women today was “the transgender ideology”.

So I’m biased. Not entirely convinced that upholding the rights of around 10-15,000 trans women in the UK (their focus) will bring on the gender apocalypse: whereas a toxic mix of cuts, austerity and unsympathetic government just might.

A recent schism within this group shows how wrong this can go. They recruited “Mumsnetters”, scarcely radical feminists. Surprise! Many of these were happy to sup with the far-right Heritage Foundation. Cue rapid backpedalling by people relying on the old maxim: “my enemy’s enemy is my friend”.

But then across a swathe of issues, from trans rights, to sex work to surrogacy, many of these already align closely to the right. So perhaps more apt: “Lie with dogs: get fleas!” " (continues)
www.independent.co.uk/voices/far-right-feminism-womens-rights-racism-mumsnet-ukip-tommy-robinson-a8793451.html
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3518111-mumsnetdescribed-as-a-recruiting-ground-for-the-far-right-appealing-to-women

This follows another article in The Independent where Fae reduced women's recognition of the legal, ethical and safeguarding implications of implanting a uterus into a male body to being 'transphobic':

"Because, it is coming. The first uterus transplants for non-trans women have happened. Across the world, the technique is being honed, becoming more successful. Experts are clear: at some point in the next decade or so a trans woman will receive a uterus. And not long after that a trans woman will become pregnant.

It is, after all, as one surgeon has declared, a human right.

Tissues again! The longing for what cannot be is near overwhelming.

Meanwhile, in the Mumsnet forums, I see the transphobes declaring, already, that they would rather no part of their body ever be available for transplant that a trans woman might benefit from. This is futile. Tissue typing and social factors make it most likely that the first donors will be the mothers of trans women."

www.independent.co.uk/voices/trans-pregnancy-transgender-womb-transplant-women-uterus-transphobia-motherhood-a8784536.html
thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3503170-Womb-transplants-for-trans-women-are-a-human-right-says-surgeon

Jane Fae does not understand Safeguarding.
There is a systemic failure within transactivism to understand and respect Safeguarding and Child Protection frameworks intended to protect children and vulnerable adults.

The predominant risk to children and women comes from male-pattern abuse, attempted control & violence which of course includes sexual violence.
important thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3301266-Safeguarding-girls-and-protecting-women-post-Jimmy-Saville-metoo

Jane Fae is conflating the implant of a uterus into a female body (which Jane calls non-trans) with the implant of the same into a male body.
Good luck with that.

And yep, who cares about experimenting on an embryo, so long as some men get to feel good about themselves.

Dr Jane Monckton Smith
(Forensic Criminologist specialising in homicide, Coercive Control and stalking. )

"In coercive control, the controlling person will keep diverting the actual argument to push the victim to keep defending themselves against spurious accusations. That way the victim cannot put their side, and seems to onlookers to be guilty of something. It’s a strategy."