Is this an about-face from The Guardian?

[NopeNi]

Well fuck me I wouldn't have expected to read this in the Guardian.

I mean, don't get me wrong, it still focuses on rights for transwomen and calls both sides of the debate "toxic" (of course) but it also says:

..."But misogyny too must be challenged. Gender identity does not cancel out sex. Women’s oppression by men has a physical basis, and to deny the relevance of biology when considering sexual inequality is a mistake. The struggle for women’s empowerment is ongoing. Reproductive freedoms are under threat and the #MeToo campaign faces a backlash. Women’s concerns about sharing dormitories or changing rooms with “male-bodied” people must be taken seriously. These are not just questions of safety but of dignity and fairness."

https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/17/the-guardian-view-on-the-gender-recognition-act-where-rights-collide

'And isn't it interesting that The Times, is currently the most trusted media group in the Uk. The BBC has recently suffered a MASSIVE decline in its trust rating. I suspect the Guardian is also having an issue with this.'

Yes, very interesting. The Times feels like a serious newspaper to me these days in a way that the others don't but I thought that was just because I'm gender critical. Clearly it's more widely felt.

Just caught up.

Can I reiterate that, while I work for one of the organisations cited upthread (not the Guardian ) my specialty is completely removed from this issue.

I consider myself a feminist but in this regard, I am simply a layperson, who learned about this issue mainly from these boards and links posted here and on Twitter.

LangClegg
Perhaps I expressed it clumsily. I meant that the activists used our natural desire to help genuinely dysmorphic individuals (transsexuals) to shoehorn in their ridiculous dogma. A dogma that actually does not help genuinely suffering individuals.

Hell
I think it was a combination of stories about women’s changing rooms in shops frequented by very young girls, organisations like the guides tying themselves in knots to avoid being transphobic, Karen White and the dawning realisation that the claims of harassment and bullying by activists are true.

Sadly, I’m guessing that intimidation and violence towards ordinary women, expressing urgent, valid concerns had no impact.
Now that journalists are seeing MPs and their own colleagues on the receiving end, it’s only a matter of time.

I agree that there has been a staggering amount of lazy, misogynistic stereotyping passed off as reporting on this issue.

@pennydrew. Yes I’m thankful. What’s wrong with saying that? I wouldn’t have known otherwise, so yes I’m thankful that mumsnet has filled the information gap for me.

BTW, there's a certain columnist at the Guardian who should be sweating at what's coming out out that press conference. It suggests that they are now potentially 'on the wrong side of history' in the sense that opinion columns might well fall from favour and have only a limited shelf life as the fashionable opinionist.

No yet there with him, but long term what's the Guardians model? Does he fit into it?

Best get writing another book whilst you still can and you are still relevant mate.

Make no mistake about this; To save democracy we must save journalism. To save journalism, newspapers and broadcast media have to do more than parrot lobby groups. They have to drill down into areas of public interest and concern.

This. Lisa Muggeridge sometimes remarks upon the large salaries paid to the elite commentariat such as Owen Jones and Polly Toynbee while paltry sums are paid for data-driven and/or investigative journalism.

The chattering classes in the UK have a lot to answer for.

Arseface - my remarks were general, not aimed at you.

It's not just that the Guardian missed the story. They actively silenced women trying to point it out to them, quickly and comprehensively deleting ANY comments suggesting women had a stake in this debate.

This.

I recall a tweet some time ago saying the columnist you refer to is 'respected by all' and I had a jolly good laugh for about an hour afterwards.

Red
Thank you for this,a flicker of hope......

Arseface
I am confused,someone in journalism ,only just having worked out what the issues are for the safety of women and girls doesn't make sense tbh.

What heresy said.

And I love her username.

I’m thankful that women have been able to speak on mumsnet even if at times it seems they were censored

Yes, me too.
I've been on here long enough to remember the SWMNBN thing and I think Mumsnet has done extremely well to avoid things going that way wrt anyone else. I don't always like the decisions they make (specially when it's me that gets deleted, lol) but I recognise that they have a line to walk.
Make no mistake, if Mumsnet were trying to shut down the gender critical conversation, they could have done so long ago and very effectively, but they didn't, which is why we are having these conversations publicly here instead of elsewhere on the internet. If they were passionate supporters of genderism they would never have allowed Mumsnet to become the gender critical recruiting field that it is.
Yes it is damned annoying not being allowed to use male pronouns for men but MNHQ are the ones whose wealth, careers, reputation and safety are put on the line by the language we use and if they reckon that is what will keep us safe to go on talking, they probably have a reason for that. We can find ways to say what we want to say and avoid lying while staying in those guidelines, it takes a bit of effort but it's not impossible.

The fuckers in Scotland completely ignored the consultation too - it was just a charade of democratic process.

This. We already lost this here.

I am amazed how many people I am blocked by on Twitter, despite never tweeting on that account. They must do it on likes or who you follow, in essence they block us merely for acknowledging opinions they don't like which is utterly ridiculous and somewhat piteous.

redtoothbrush thanks for posting that stuff about the media conference. Very interesting and important.

kitty yes it is salutary to remember how social media like Twitter is working against freedom of expression and open democracy.

Not only just. I’ve been reading these boards for ages but in a personal capacity.

Off to work now so will sign off.

The chattering classes in the UK have a lot to answer for.

THIS.

Thank fuck for Mumsnet and ordinary women on Twitter. I for one still think Justine did a very brave thing by letting women speak, even with these stupid restrictions. While I am sure that FWR probably is a huge draw for Mumsnet (it's the only reason I am here), she could have easily saved herself the grief and harassment by shutting women down. Just like everyone else has.

So thanks MN

I trust the women on here more than I trust most of our elite institutions.

Excellent thoughtful article. Thank you for sharing OP. I don't see it as an about face but a recognition there is a clear conflict with no easy solution.

The Guardian rejects the idea that one of these positions is the right one – and the other wrong. Important questions of personal identity are at stake, but also legal rights and protections.

And Arseface, I did not mean to attack you as a person.
I am glad you see the problems.
I am just incredibly disappointed in the media, many institutions, and the Guardian in particular.
I cannot bear any excuses for the shit journalists and the media have been complicit in putting women through. Not right now.
It cannot be such that when journalists are trained and paid to uncover the truth, to question our institutions, to promote democracy, that it takes normal women on a parenting forum to be the actual champions of freedom of speech and critical thought.

It cannot be such that when journalists are trained and paid to uncover the truth, to question our institutions, to promote democracy, that it takes normal women on a parenting forum to be the actual champions of freedom of speech and critical thought

Yes. But the Times, Spectator and even the Daily Mail championed free speech on this issue. The Guardian and BBC are the biggest culprits.

Would just like to respond to Arseface.

It won't wash. There are women in the industry who have told editors what is happening. They were ignored, or rebuked, or worse. There is no excuse. The only thing these news organisations have now realised is which side their bread is buttered.

I'd have to see a lot more like this in The Guardian before I changed my mind about it. Until then, I cannot wait for the day it dies a horrible flaming painful financial death.

True, I shouldn't be ungrateful to the media who have covered this story. But at one point, it felt like I could count on one hand the number of journalists who would cover these issues critically.

The Times, in particular Janice Turner (plus Andrew Gilligan & Lucy Bannerman) have been excellent. Special props to the Spectator for giving James Kirkup a platform to dig into this. And the Mail for covering ManFriday. Plus Sarah Ditum, Helen Lewis, Victoria Smith and others. The publishing of the essays in the Economist was a real win for critical thought and free speech, so thanks to the editor for that one.

The Times is now my go-to paper.

The BBC and the Guardian call themselves the "good guys."
You're right, most of my ire is really directed at them.

To save democracy we must save journalism. To save journalism, newspapers and broadcast media have to do more than parrot lobby groups. They have to drill down into areas of public interest and concern

This this this. I think Arseface's point about the death of local news is hugely relevant as well. If nobody is reporting on local news, how are journalists going to find out what's going on outside their elitist bubble?

Over on twitter 'Dr' Harrop is disappointed

Awww, diddums. Perhaps wee Owen can cheer you up.

And Julie Bindel, of course. Who has her own trigger warning

Oh - and respect to The Times and The Spectator who have the courage of their conviction and the conviction of their courage.

The Guardian can fuck off. And take the Labour Party, Jeremy Corbyn wee Owen and the other fuckers with them.