When logic fails & my experience in a relationship with a trans woman

[idontlikepinkandimstillfemale]

I'm writing this to suggest some reasons why women's opinions on self-ID are being excluded, and in case I have experience that others haven't had and it gives some insights. I had a relationship 20 years ago with someone who at the time referred to themselves as a transvestite, but today calls themselves a trans woman (still with male genital organs, as with the majority of self-identified trans women).

Whilst I was with my ex, he openly admitted to me that he would fantasise that we were both lesbians, and I often felt objectified, the clothes I was wearing fetishized, and frankly patronised at times as I was cooed over for displaying any kind of stereotypical feminine behaviour (and I don’t consider myself a particularly feminine woman), all of which made me feel uncomfortable as it was not a reflection of how I feel about my sex, gender or sexuality. It made me feel like a prop in a man’s fantasy, his view of women and our ‘essence’, very much coming from the perspective of the male gaze.

In fact I have always remained on good terms with my ex, but lately I cannot accept the demands of his trans-ideology which requires that I acknowledge as fact that they are a woman, to call them otherwise is hate speech, and thus by extension that I am presumably a lesbian. This is not out of any moral objection, but because it is not true, and in addition doesn’t seem to be driven by any genuine belief on their part that they are a woman, but are getting a sexual kick out of on being called one, as is the case, I believe, with the majority of the most vocal trans women. My lived experience in my own female body as a natal born woman does not appear to be in any way similar to that of this ex-partner. He displays in his confidence to speak out about trans issues all the confidence of the white, male, middle class background that he was raised in, the worst example being when they were ‘transplaining’ to me street harassment as though I, who have lived my entire life as a woman and have experienced this since pubescence, as well as being the victim of a violent sexual assault on the street, couldn’t possibly know what that’s like!

In any case, the reason I believe that any kind of rational discussion fails with this type of trans activism, such as inclusive arguments that the goal posts should change to accept feminine men and masculine women as they are, is because that's not what they ultimately want, they want to be admired and accepted as a woman because that's where their sexual thrill lies, which might be fine if it was consensual, but instead it's being forced on us, with a desire to access all our resources, private spaces, even the language we describe ourselves with so that they can feel not just fully as women, but a kind of untouchable, uber race of women, excelling at us in sport, being named 'Woman of the Year', and taking over positions of responsibility that we've fought for to be led by biological women. It's rape culture, ignoring any kind of ideas of consent and saying we should shut up and go along with it or else be accused of a hate crime. Anyway, I thought I'd share in case this adds anything new the discussion, would love to hear your thoughts.

@Sohardtochooseausername - so many trans women deny this exists even though it's completely obvious what's going on! I don't personally care if that's what gets people off, but I do care if I'm non-consensually expected to help someone live out their fantasies through the erosion of my own rights.

I am peak-transing this week (started with the cyclist.)

My mind is being blown.

Before I was like, whatever. Live and let live. But now I can see beyond the genuine dysphoria cases and the fun drag stuff there’s a very strange agenda which feels very much like insidious male power breaking into female spaces.

I have lots of right on friends I am too scared to discuss this with. I’m sure they also feel too scared to discuss it.

@Sohardtochooseausername Yes, my peak trans moment was when my ex transplained street harassment to me (he posted on his Facebook that a guy asked him if it was difficult being trans in Texas and he exploded, as did all his trans friend's in their violent comments. F*, wish that was the worst thing that had ever happened to me on the street). You're exactly right, male entitlement. Hope you can find a way to be brave enough to talk about it with your friends, we shouldn't have to be afraid to defend our rights in the entirely reasonable and non-hateful way we are doing. I think most people just know nothing about it and have swallowed the mainstream propaganda.

@Sohardtochooseausername I've been out of the country for the while and haven't been following what's going on, so my most recent peak trans moment was finding out a 20 year old boy in a dress (with a cock, and a girlfriend, and schizophrenia - not to stigmatise anyone but I can't see them employing an actual 20 year old girl who fits that description) who dismisses any woman who wants to talk about women's rights with the word 'transphobic', was considered a suitable political representative of women in the Labour party. Sorry not sorry, that's what he is and that's how little they think of us. Politically homeless and thinking we need a new movement.

pink, I agree with you 100%. I briefly dated a transvestite and recognise what you are describing. He wasn't dysphoric. He dressed as a woman for the sexual kick. He said once he had come he was overcome with shame for being out in public in women's clothes.

Hadn't twigged at the time but of course the implication of this is that he was wanking in public. When the allegations against Jess Bradley were made I recognised that behaviour too.

And the law says that there must be no barriers to letting these people perform their fetishes anywhere they like.

Trousered

I've just watched Shelia Jeffries speaking at the Jam Jar in Bristol .. and f*ckkkkkkkkk! This is HUGE.

I was beginning to understand that the organising preceded the 2004 GRA but Jefferies' point that it got serious in 1990s plus the international scale is both stupefying and makes complete sense all at the same time given where we are now.

Thank you for flagging it. Off to check her Camden speech now (and read anything google has on her rather than doing what I'm supposed to be doing tonight)

I am sad for you - I fell out of love with labour another way, when it was obvious they just didn’t ‘get’ Scotland. Not that I was pro-indie then, but they weren’t listening to what people - long time voters - were saying. Feels like they are out of touch in this way too. They have jumped the shark!

he posted on his Facebook that a guy asked him if it was difficult being trans in Texas

I had to read what you wrote three times to be sure I’d understood. I still think maybe I missed something. That question was his idea of street harassment? And worthy of an explosive response?

Damn, I just peak transed all over again. So privileged and yet so self-pitying and angry.

@Thethiniceofanewday yes, and whilst for a lot of these men I think it's a fairly harmless sexual thrill, some of them really do seem to hate and underestimate women, they way they think we're just going to roll over, take advantage of our nurturing nature cos we don't know what their game is. It's funny that I've always been quite gender non-conforming and never cared much to be called a woman, but seeing women who've been raked over the coals for expressing themselves on this issue I've never felt more proud.

@HomeStar Yeah, he told him to fuck off (I wish I had the luxury of being 6'3" and well-built so I could do that and not fear for my safety). I tried to tell him that it sounded like he was just trying to make conversation and signal he wasn't any threat, but he said it felt inappropriate as a member of a disadvantaged group to go straight in and ask him about that. Maybe he's got some sort of mild point, like when people ask me every time I go to a coding event about being a woman, but I certainly don't tell people to fuck off when they do it. It seems they expect everyone to toe the line or else be met with aggression.

jemima I remember this first being an issue around 2000. I worked in parliamentary lobbying and I was at a meeting of various interest groups discussing the idea of an equality act. And it was blindingly obvious that there were going to be competing rights, e.g the right of religious people not to support gay marriage, vs the rights of people to marry the partner of their choice regardless of their sex, and it was shuffled off into the long grass.

And even then there was plenty of "it will never happen" - just a hope that people would be sensible. Until a man sued his local church for not letting him join the women's group. He identified as a woman and demanded to be allowed to participate. Now and again I try and search for the case but I don't recall enough detail. There was also a vicar who transitioned at a time when women priests were still highly unusual. He benefited from his male priviliege to become a minister then changed to become a woman.

The appropriation and sexualisation of everything 'woman' is absolutely relentless and unquenchable.

I am getting really sick of how all the body confidence narratives women have needed to help us overcome being culturally made to feel inadequate and worthless, is also feeding into their fetishes.

You get Jess Bradley doing the bloody Vagina Monologues or you get that weird one recently talking about 'I love my male genitals' even though I am a woman. - So a male is able to broadcast a fascination with their cock but act as though they are a down-trodden women who is 'just trying to get a bit of body confidence back'... yeah right... Like Bradly doesn't want to get it out at every opportunity.

Everything women say or do, males can turn into a degrading wank fantasy in a split second.

@NewWomensMovement - yes, those who claim it's blasphemy to not call them women seem very keen to tell us to suck their cocks every time we disagree. Just good old fashioned male on female aggression.

Thehiniceofanewday - thanks for this. I'm trying to get my head around to what extent where we are is top down v bottom up (due to a sort of collisions cultural enablers).

Jefferies insights were fascinating in outlining a kind of framework for the movement and it is clear that there has been a fairly high level degree of organisation in UK for at least 2 decades (sufficient to obstruct Norman Tebbit's pretty determined efforts to get a clear definition of gender V sex)

More recently (this decade?) it seems as though there is a deliberate effort to finance legal cases in order to make case law that can be used to increase trans rights (eg the case Posie Parker made about TiMs now able to search females -after a discrimination case was bought).

I think your case though highlights that men can anyway be relied upon to persuade these cases themselves (i'm assuming this was the case in your example) just because of their male socialisation and 'natural' outrage when they are excluded from anything. So the pressure to get change/ rights creep via the courts is both bottom up and top down.

Fascinating insights idontlikepinkandimstillfemale

One of the characteristics that the trans-widows women noticed was a lot of their partners were in IT? And spent a lot of time gaming. Using avatars, inhabiting different personas.

Is that your experience?

I know I'm in good company on this forum when I wake up each day and realise I'm still down this fucking rabbit hole.

@Datun not my personal experience, but interesting.

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale

It is all quite interesting. Spending a lot of time in a virtual world must have its effect, I'm guessing.

The transwidows thread is interesting because so much of their individual experiences are the same.

This thread is interesting as well.

Thank you for the insight OP. I believe Lisa Muggeridge plays on this in her youtube vids, when she says we should not mirror TRAs but just clearly state that their identity has nothing to do with us women.