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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

When logic fails & my experience in a relationship with a trans woman

69 replies

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 16:59

I'm writing this to suggest some reasons why women's opinions on self-ID are being excluded, and in case I have experience that others haven't had and it gives some insights. I had a relationship 20 years ago with someone who at the time referred to themselves as a transvestite, but today calls themselves a trans woman (still with male genital organs, as with the majority of self-identified trans women).

Whilst I was with my ex, he openly admitted to me that he would fantasise that we were both lesbians, and I often felt objectified, the clothes I was wearing fetishized, and frankly patronised at times as I was cooed over for displaying any kind of stereotypical feminine behaviour (and I don’t consider myself a particularly feminine woman), all of which made me feel uncomfortable as it was not a reflection of how I feel about my sex, gender or sexuality. It made me feel like a prop in a man’s fantasy, his view of women and our ‘essence’, very much coming from the perspective of the male gaze.

In fact I have always remained on good terms with my ex, but lately I cannot accept the demands of his trans-ideology which requires that I acknowledge as fact that they are a woman, to call them otherwise is hate speech, and thus by extension that I am presumably a lesbian. This is not out of any moral objection, but because it is not true, and in addition doesn’t seem to be driven by any genuine belief on their part that they are a woman, but are getting a sexual kick out of on being called one, as is the case, I believe, with the majority of the most vocal trans women. My lived experience in my own female body as a natal born woman does not appear to be in any way similar to that of this ex-partner. He displays in his confidence to speak out about trans issues all the confidence of the white, male, middle class background that he was raised in, the worst example being when they were ‘transplaining’ to me street harassment as though I, who have lived my entire life as a woman and have experienced this since pubescence, as well as being the victim of a violent sexual assault on the street, couldn’t possibly know what that’s like!

In any case, the reason I believe that any kind of rational discussion fails with this type of trans activism, such as inclusive arguments that the goal posts should change to accept feminine men and masculine women as they are, is because that's not what they ultimately want, they want to be admired and accepted as a woman because that's where their sexual thrill lies, which might be fine if it was consensual, but instead it's being forced on us, with a desire to access all our resources, private spaces, even the language we describe ourselves with so that they can feel not just fully as women, but a kind of untouchable, uber race of women, excelling at us in sport, being named 'Woman of the Year', and taking over positions of responsibility that we've fought for to be led by biological women. It's rape culture, ignoring any kind of ideas of consent and saying we should shut up and go along with it or else be accused of a hate crime. Anyway, I thought I'd share in case this adds anything new the discussion, would love to hear your thoughts.

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Rumbledore · 17/10/2018 18:44

Genuine question - do most transwomen consider themselves lesbians?

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 18:46

MsJeminaPuddleduck - That's OK, I came here for discussion! He must know, because when he first told me, years after we'd broke up, that he had breast implants now and dressed as a woman all the time, I'd already told him how I felt about gender being a performance and that you can't really just become a woman, but I tried to be supportive of how he wanted to live his life so didn't push it. I think he's conflicted because it's a fantasy rather than a logical thing, just like some women have a rape fantasy but don't actually want to be raped, but of course it's different if you then assume a whole identity based upon that fantasy. He tries to be supportive in many ways of women in non-gender conforming roles, playing in a band with other women etc and such like, and he's definitely not the misogynist that a lot of trans activists appear to be.

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MsJeminaPuddleduck · 17/10/2018 18:49

Thank you for all this Idontlikepink

Your comment here makes sense re quite a few of the more prominent trans activists (won't name names as I'm fairly new here and haven't really figured out the posting rules)

For him, to be perfectly honest I think he didn't ever feel adequate as a man

The wider cultural context of (hyper?) capitalism, choice agenda for everything, extreme individualism/ identify politics, easy availability of porn, technology & greater interconnectivity due to social media plus increased prominence of women in public life/ work thereby reducing men's 'natural' role etc is almost creating a perfect storm / breeding ground for this.

So maybe trans is now an outlet for men who, might in the past, have found an alternative outlet (s) for these feelings

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 18:51

Rumbledore - I'm not sure what the percentage breakdown is, I do know that the number of trans lesbians or bisexuals has greatly increased in the last few years, and that 80% of trans women don't undergo medical procedures.

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Sohardtochooseausername · 17/10/2018 18:52

It rings bells for me as someone I know well has come out as transgender. It’s compoetely wrecked his family. His wife said he had been transsexual and into kink it stuff and that had been annoying but ok. But this - feels different. They are not going to get surgery but are asking everyone to see them as a woman. Their kids are really freaked out.

Rumbledore · 17/10/2018 18:57

Thanks i don'tlikepink I seem to recall reading somewhere that tw were still attracted to women. Might have imagined it though Grin

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 18:59

MsJeminaPuddleduck - Yes, I agree with everything you've said, we live in an age where identity can be something you can construct and buy, a way of escape. The medicalisation of every single thought or feeling also has something to do with it, I think. I think with these narcissistic trans activists, it's now a way of being untouchable too - making constant demands to be validated or else litigated against or threatened.

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MsJeminaPuddleduck · 17/10/2018 19:01

Your description of your ex as conflicted and the rape fantasy analogy helps I think to explain some of the TRA's reactions when challenged

I think I've heard someone explain the TWAW as a faith position/ a belief (inner essence as a gendered soul) hence why challenging it with rational arguments usually isn't effective and can provoke a strong reaction.

I wonder if trans as an ideology would have as much 'stickiness' in a culture that isn't rooted a religion such as Christianity with the idea of an essential soul/ spirit separate from the body?

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 19:01

Rumbledore - it's very common. Also are you aware of the emotional blackmail that lesbians have been facing to sleep with trans women. They get called transphobic for not wanting to deal with a man.

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idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 19:05

MsJeminaPuddleduck - yes, so what annoys me so far is that I haven't seen many male scientists, the ones who are often prominent in the media speaking out about belief vs science, backing us up! This debate is showing me who's really prepared to stick their neck out for women.

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MsJeminaPuddleduck · 17/10/2018 19:07

Yes!!! This! Any the psychologist and the sociologists (bar the freaky gender studies ones who clearly have a vested interest in pushing the bandwagon) - where are they????

MsJeminaPuddleduck · 17/10/2018 19:08

Sorry re typos - hopefully it makes sense. On mobile and got a bit excited..

TinselAngel · 17/10/2018 19:08

Hi @idontlikepinkandimstillfemale will RTFT later, but just wondered if you've seen the Trans Widows thread here?

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 19:14

TinselAngel - yes thanks, it's a really good read and quite shocking.

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idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 19:16

Sohardtochooseausername - I'm sorry to hear about your friend, she might also find the transwidow website helpful: transwidow.wordpress.com/page/1/

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idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 19:18

MsJeminaPuddleduck - Fing tumbleweeds, innit?! Maybe they're just waiting to see how safe it is to air an opinion first and let us do all the dirty work, or perhaps they just don't fing care unless they have a wife getting them on the case. Sad.

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Prawnofthepatriarchy · 17/10/2018 19:27

Sexual orientation appears to be fixed, so heterosexual men who transition remain sexually attracted to women and often describe themselves as lesbians. Transsexuals are more likely to be attracted to men.

This orientation and the fact that so many of the people under Stonewall's greatly increased definition of trans are sexually motivated is one of the factors that leads to the conflict between TRAs and women. If transwomen were largely attracted to men and wanted genital surgery for this reason they would present a very different level of threat.

I remember years ago reading hundreds of posts from transwidows on a feminist blog. Just as with other abusive relationships, there was a clear and predictable pattern to the behaviour of these fetishists. They all followed a script.

Men like your Ex like to recast your sexual relationship as lesbian. The fetishization and depersonalisation you describe are classic. A relationship like this is very damaging to the woman involved. I bet you're glad to be out of it.

I've met the woman who writes the transwidow blog on WordPress linked above. She spoke very well at a feminist meeting I attended and stayed for the piss up a drink afterwards.

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 19:44

Prawnofthepatriarchy - thanks for the comment. I think I got off lightly because to be honest our sexuality was never really compatible so I always saw them more as a friend and never really felt in love with them. They were supportive of me in other ways and very affectionate, but I did feel objectified too, and I do object in general to men calling themselves lesbians, which must be a lot worse for actual lesbians. Must be devastating when someone has a family with someone who comes out as trans.

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idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 19:48

Prawnofthepatriarchy - I'm not against a trans woman being in a 'lesbian' relationship though if it's all consensual, live and let live, but it's all the policing language and thought crime crap and invading women's own boundaries, that's where I draw the line.

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idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 20:05

@Rumbledore This is just one statistic I found having a quick look, which states that the percentage of trans women lesbians is 27%, and bisexual 20%, so almost 50% overall, and it seems to be something that is also increasing: www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2017/05/08/many-assume-that-homosexuality-and-transgenderism-are-related-but-that-may-not-be-the-case/#1648a88a50b8

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Rumbledore · 17/10/2018 20:15

Thank you idontlikepink it's hard to get my head round this. It's such a complex subject.

Trousered · 17/10/2018 20:29

I think, from what I have read ( and studied closely as I am writing a book about a famous person who was AGP), that normal sexual arousal that does appear in children in early years and subsequently goes dormant for most, can become embedded when it manifests, if it is reacted to with assault, shame and abuse.

idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 21:06

@Trousered that's really interesting. My ex had a really kind and supportive family, but I know he had a hard time at school. I don't know if it's worth mentioning and am not doing so to be mean, but he had a really small penis.

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idontlikepinkandimstillfemale · 17/10/2018 21:08

@Trousered he also had a fantasy about wanting to be raped by lesbians, and had a crush on this androgynous girl since childhood who would shame him a lot, a bit of a masochist and I know that's very common with AGP.

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Sohardtochooseausername · 17/10/2018 21:15

Omg I googled AGP and got this - this makes complete sense for the man I know who came out as transgender mirandayardley.com/en/what-autogynephilia-is-and-what-is-it-not-a-brief-note/
Yuck.