What am I?

[captainproton]

I am female but I work in a traditionally male role. I don’t wear a wedding ring because it would get damaged. I am tall and wear men’s clothes because they fit on the arms better, and they have pockets for my pens/screwdrivers etc.

I decided long ago that I wanted to present androgynous at work/life so as not to be judged by a female appearance. Having grown up around males who never held me back I have emulated the way they operated through life. I wanted the opportunities males had and the fun life they had (if you like the smell and hum of machinery) and went for it. Yes I have come across sexism and been groped by dick heads. But not in over a decade (since I stopped being sexually attractive I suppose). Being tall I can look men in the eye or down on them if they are short. I have a quick wit and will use it against any man who thinks I do the cleaning at home and my husband the diy.

I don’t wear bras if I can help it, nor make-up or heels. My personal grooming mirrors that of men. If men are required by social standards to deplete their hair in that area then so do I. That basically just means I take care of facial hair and anything that might show when swimming.

I am a mother and I have breastfed and am proud of my body for these things. It’s about the only time I felt proud of my body. And believe me I have wished I was born male because it’s hard sometimes being the only female and facing really big hurdles to be accepted.

what am I in this modern world? I stand at the school gates and listen to a female world discussing hair, nails, makeup and now it seems eyebrows? I have never taken a selfie in my life. I find it all so vain and tbh pointless. And I am lost. I am more comfortable around men, and I don’t flirt with them. Although I did meet my husband at work but that was long ago and took 6 years to develop. Our discussions at work revolve around things like “are the lunar landings real”.

Btw if it’s relevant I am very concerned about safeguarding issues around self ID.

A female friend of mine said once that my small circle of mum friends found me endearing because I literally couldn’t give a shit about what I wore and looked like.

Because I consciously dress in men’s clothes and choose to follow the social rules that apply to men. Does it make me a trans man?

I am confused now and I wasn’t before. I feel like a rabbit hole has opened up, I thought I was part of the females trying to even the playing field, an example to my daughters but now I am no longer sure!

The idea that married women with children had the same opportunities as men and things are more polarised now is simply not true.

I didn't say that..! I probably wasn't clear.
When I said "things" are more polarised, the "things" I was referring to were specifically about female presentation (since that's what the thread is about) not the general restrictions on women.
So, what I meant by that was that in 1955 it's unlikely a girl working on the till at a supermarket would be wearing HD brows, hair extensions and false eyelashes. Women in the 1950s were not expected to get dolled up like they do now.
That's really all I was talking about.

That makes sense. I think women did set their hair and follow fashion, not the highly sexualised look which has come around more recently. It is a really interesting point, because there was some research recently which said that in more equal societies men and women sought to distinguish themselves more.

Of course consumerism and higher disposable income plays a part.

I misread your meaning, no need to apologise- although I still think women wore certain cuts of clothing (the New Look, for example, maybe not in factories but certainly retail) and set their hair a certain way, even if there was not so much make up, so it was not androgynous or masculine as such

I am back, and have been trying to work a reply without it becoming to long winded and meandering.

If the meaning of woman is now not simply adult human female, and it is supposed to now include everyone who wants to be feminine and present as a woman, some or all of the time, Then what do the people who believe this make me out as? A female who consciously set out to emulate men who is now a mother. So perhaps following the new logic I am occasionally man? Or I was man for a while then I went back to being a woman? so what is the point of these words, what is the point of gender at all? Are the girls that are increasingly identifying as men simply younger versions of myself? I think some are. I really loathed my female body but I grew to love myself and realised in the end it didn’t really matter, what truly matters is equality and being yourself.

when I was a teenager no one said you could be a man instead. That would probably have sounded amazing at the time. But now I realise what I hated is the patriarchy and how women have to look and act to fit in. We are judged on our looks and my 6 year old knows it too.

Self ID is going to mess up a lot of heads. It would’ve have messed my young head up. I know there are safeguarding concerns too and I am not happy about sharing female spaces with penises especially not when I have my children with me.

I’m sorry if I offended anyone, I don’t look down on women who use make up and are feminine. I just don’t get it and feel like I don’t fit in the sisterhood sometimes.

I am cursed with over thinking things...

I don’t think it matters what people who believe in gender as the defining feature not sex make you out as. Because surely the whole point of gender identity is that you cannot define someone else - it is their innate sense of being male or female..

Following the new logic, you are only occasionally a man if you identify as one. That is the whole point.

Are young girls who ID as male simply younger versions of yourself? To an extent, I think yes. But there is also not enough known about rapid onset gender dysphoria to say. We simply do not know what is behind it, we can guess however.

Self-ID will mess with people’s heads and it will raise safe-guarding issues. Indeed.

How much simpler to remain in the old world where you know you are a woman because your body, theoretically at least, has the capacity to bear children. How much simpler to kick against the constraints placed on you by society because you have that capacity. How much easier for society to dismantle those constraints (whilst still providing protection for women where needed).

And finally, I am not sure I belong to a sisterhood either - that is the point, women can be as diverse as they like and until very recently, there would have been no question at all that they were women. The only feature that would have spoken against being a woman was having a penis. Again, how much simpler was that.

Hi captainproton I still sometimes ask similar questions of myself. I never felt like I was a girl cos I didn't like 'girl things' like getting dressed up or going shopping or any of the other cliches. Found it simpler to be 'one of the boys', got a job in a male dominated industry. I discovered that 1920s women got that ironing board look through breastbinders and I looked into it. This was a while back and no 'trans' ideology so I too wonder what I'd be doing to myself and how confused I'd be if I was a teen now. Luckily I had kids and eventually realised that women are all individuals, just like men. And realised that one of the reasons I didn't want to be a woman was cos I didn't want to be treated like a woman -- objectified, thought of as prey or service class. Who would? I also have now worked out how to make friends with women and it's a wondrous revelation. Maybe it's an age thing, that we reach a point when we all stop pretending and competing and so a better connection with others is possible.

Yes Judder absolutely you are right. And as we become more objectified and little girls are bombarded with the pink message, more girls are going to become transmen. We have a responsibility to these girls to show them it’s ok in the end.

If the meaning of woman is now not simply adult human female, and it is supposed to now include everyone who wants to be feminine and present as a woman

No, it still only means "adult human female". Males and females can both be feminine

And realised that one of the reasons I didn't want to be a woman was cos I didn't want to be treated like a woman -- objectified, thought of as prey or service class

I have never thought of myself as prey or service class and have not been treated as such. I liked being a girl and I like being a woman . I never wanted to be a boy or a man. I have never experienced the sort of self- loathing which seems very common amongst posters here.

I don't think being a woman has stopped me doing what I wanted to do. My profession was not overly male dominated when I joined it although men were in the majority. The particular niche sector, which I moved to in 1989 , was however almost exclusively male. I was the only woman in a department of 12 men. I don't actually recall making anything of it other than head down and get on with my work. However given some of the OP's comments I expect she would think I'm vain and pointless.

Am I correct in thinking that you have never taken a career break, gone part time or had any caring responsibilities Lass? So you have been able to devote as much time to your career as your male colleagues .

I had 3 months maternity leave and went back to work full time. I concede it was relatively easy as husband was as involved in child care and domestic stuff as I was and we could afford a nanny and a cleaner who did all the housework and ironing. Other than cooking I didn't do any housework whilst my son was at school (actually I still don't do any housework)

Do you think the fact that you are in an extremely well paid, prestigious job working full time with one ( I’m assuming ) NT child at private school, a supportive partner and paid staff might mean that you are less likely to be treated as service class or disadvantaged due being a woman?

Compared to a working class woman bringing up several children on her own working in a NMW insecure job as a cleaner.

Or the mother of several SN kids who is dependent on benefits because of her child’s disabilities.

Or a woman in her 70s caring for her disabled husband.

Or is it just their self loathing that makes their lives harder than yours ?

Or is it just their self loathing that makes their lives harder than yours ?

I was referring to the self-loathing which many posters seem to experience as girls. I think the OP mentions it somewhere. This idea of hating one's female body.

Presumably your nanny, cleaner, house keeper were/are women, Lass

I have never thought of myself as prey or service class and have not been treated as such. I liked being a girl and I like being a woman . I never wanted to be a boy or a man. I have never experienced the sort of self- loathing which seems very common amongst posters here.

I agree! I love being a woman and loved being a girl. I can be both feminine and not when I choose.
I am intelligent, articulate and confident.
I am a mother and proud of my body for that.

I have never wanted to be a boy or man.

I was referring to the self-loathing which many posters seem to experience as girls. I think the OP mentions it somewhere. This idea of hating one's female body.

I don’t think this happens in isolation. Girls who are in an environment where they are subjected to certain behaviours and attitudes probably experience this more. At the more extreme end of the scale that could be sexual abuse, but I think even a less overtly abusive environment can do it.

Things like developing early and being teased for it at school, being subjected to harassment and cat calling while in school uniform, being shamed by family for periods - many more examples of what in isolation might be small incidents but which add up. Even things which aren’t external - I used to do martial arts but the uniform was white and my periods were so heavy I stopped. I hated that - it felt so unfair and the GP was totally dismissive of bleeding through a pad an hour for nine days a month.

When you add in the frighteningly sexualised atmosphere around media and social media these days I can see how girls loathe their bodies - it’s a frightening experience to suddenly be seen as sexually available at a young age.

If we had a society where girls were more widely respected, then I suspect their developing bodies would be less of a distress to them and we would see a lot less self loathing.

I’m fairly sure this is a large factor behind the increase in girls presenting at gender clinics - it’s effectively attempting to opt out of being an adult woman.

As for being service class - few women can afford a housekeeper or a nanny. Effectively four people ran that household, so if you hadn’t been able to afford that you’d have been doing double work between you. That’s not a criticism - it’s how you run your life and it’s as valid as anyone else’s way, but it’s not the norm. In effect it’s what many men get to do and they don’t get criticised for it. Women do though don’t they which is interesting in itself.

don’t think my set up is the norm either - I have an involved partner who parents equally. To me that’s the minimum but I see an awful lot around me where even that isn’t happening and the woman is doing absolutely everything - job with long hours, all the child care, cooking, laundry etc.

I always liked being a girl and being a woman, but I can definitely understand why some girls don't, especially in today'sover-sexualised climate. I think it's important to always bear in mind that other people have very different experiences from you, as Bowlofbabelfish says above. Not only that, but people's psychological make-up varies a great deal, too, and so how individuals respond to things psychologically can also be widely different.

I've only read the first few posts (sorry; bfing and want to cover as much as I can while he's asleep) but to the op;

You sound exactly like I'm sure so many women felt like in the past; wishing and aching they were a man due to the world around them.

I think I never felt like that purely as I was one of two girls in a family with strong female role models and I do think being a xennial helps as I think we were exposed to certain things at key times and not other things (eg social media).

I spoke to my xennial mate the other day about all of this and she was quite - well duh being gender critical is obvious, I thought all this was sorted out ages ago. Her daughter is very gender non conforming and wore a tux to my wedding a few years ago (I noticed Cara Delavigne did yesterday).

You sound sensible and practical to be perfectly honest.

I wish I could ditch make up but I do believe I developed serious dysphoria around my face from an early age (I look at how I've acted my whole life esp at university and I know it was unhealthy behaviour- driven by popular culture and a few comments growing up) and I've a hang over from this. It's just part of how I deal with some remaining social anxiety.

I wore boys jeans growing up - stronger, good fit and bigger pockets. Dr martens for the same reason. Baggy jumpers no real gender. I'm very petite though so have to choose women's things sometimes.

My profession is female heavy- which I think has been confidence building - so I think I'd feel like you if it wasn't.

I do remember mourning the loss of my flat child's chest actually. I developed very late and was sad I wasn't like my mates but also sad to be loosing my child's body too. I guess it's puberty! However I never spoke about it - you didn't, there's a culture of oversharing (helpful for mh, but a double edged sword) and I think that's why this is getting out of control.

I never thought of myself as prey or service class either and I never loathed my body.
I was brought up with no pressures to be different from my brothers.
It's been teen years and adulthood that made me realise that I was seen as those things by men-its not something internal to me. I started reading articles and stuff in women's mags asking if women could "have it all" and was like WTF at the assumption that men just COULD.
I got followed and catcalled and curbcrawled by men. If I was broke and complained about it some boy would always say " why don't you be call girl ha ha" like it was an easy option. I got interesting jobs as a young woman because the boss fancied his chances, but as an older woman was overlooked in jobs I was very experienced at. I realised that however i felt inside I would often be consigned to whichever category the system decided I belonged in.
I do not and have never seen myself as a victim, or feel lesser than men but the disadvantages of being female have been entirely external to my sense of self.
What I hope that young girls experiencing discomfort with their femaleness will be able to do is to stop turning that inwards and fight the external restrictions on them.
There is WAY too much introspection going on with all this identity politics.
Never mind how you wear your hair or if you like having boobs or not. It's irrelevant.

Incidentally I'm very jealous of anyone who never does housework. I think that's my current ambition!

Op you are a woman.
Do you not think other women talk about space and such like?
My dp and I discuss how wonderful it is to have deep, meaningful conversations with each other. Yet I can still wear make up and women 's clothes. I'm not tall though and do have curves. All 3 of my dc (boys and girls) wear each other's clothes. They are not young children either. The only thing they don't share are underwear and shoes as ds is a size 11!

Presumably your nanny, cleaner, house keeper were/are women, Lass

One of them was a man. Although what the sex of my employees has to do with the fact that I did not go through a phase of hating my female body as a teenager escapes me.

Her daughter is very gender non conforming and wore a tux to my wedding a few years ago (I noticed Cara Delavigne did yesterday)

Unless the woman in question generally follows the style of someone like Lea de Laria a woman wearing a tuxedo or a dinner suit is not "gender non conforming". Very far from it. I used to have a dinner suit - one few times I wore trousers.

Like Cara, and like most women who wear them, I look very feminine. Putting women who look like her and me (make up, long hair , heels) in a dinner suit emphasises femininity. It might look very stylish and eye- catching but "gender non- conforming" - not in the slightest.