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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FLAG Attitudes to Gender Survey: Loughborough Uni

124 replies

TuttoNero · 11/10/2018 16:28

Apologies if this has already been discussed. I did quick search but couldn't find anything.

Is anybody else completing this survey?

lboro.onlinesurveys.ac.uk/attitudes2gender

In the guidance it says it will take about 20 minutes to complete but it is taking me a damn sight longer than that as I wrestle with the terms sex and gender and how I perceive they are being applied. I think they are conflating the two terms but I am no expert which is why I am putting it out here to see if anybody else has any thoughts on it.

OP posts:
senua · 12/10/2018 14:24

What everyone else said. I did plenty of ranting in the comments sections. At the end my feedback said:

I am cross that so many questions confuse gender and sex because it will skew your results and make this survey meaningless. For example Q44/10 asks if Govt should be the arbiter on these matters: if we are talking 'sex' then the answer is 'yes'; if we are talking 'gender' then the answer is 'no'. I had to resort to 'neither agree nor disagree'.
I also take issue with 'legal gender' that you mentioned several times. There is no such thing.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 12/10/2018 14:28

"A system which did not declare children female or male at birth would cause problems for parents."

lolololol

senua · 12/10/2018 14:28

Actually, it is worse than I thought. These people are called FLaG which stands for Future of Legal Gender. They are already in the pro-gender camp, aren't they.

Fallingirl · 12/10/2018 14:39

In this post from August this year, if you scroll down, they have a section that is GC, including an extract from Kathleen Stock.

When I read this back then, I thought it sounded somewhat promising, but then looking at the survey they came up with, I despair.

futureoflegalgender.kcl.ac.uk/2018/08/22/diversifying-abolishing-equalising-gender-can-the-law-do-all-three/#

BlardyBlar · 12/10/2018 14:44

I used to have a job where I transcribed information from surveys. I don’t envy those sorting these out. I was mostly very patient, but irritation may have slipped past a couple of times...

senua · 12/10/2018 15:00

I suppose we ought to be glad that it wasn't just 'yes/no' responses, we had the comment boxes too. I didn't leave many un-ranted.Grin

BlardyBlar · 12/10/2018 15:06

Some suggestions are Confused

Do they believe that if we stop observing and recording sex at birth, that sex and sexism will suddenly disappear?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/10/2018 16:27

Ye gods... I have never Strongly Disagreed so much - because I don't have a bloody GENDER.

And all those double negatives in that last sections... even reading them aloud doesn't help! I put my lecturer hat on and reprimanded them, severely!

theOtherPamAyres · 12/10/2018 16:32

They are already in the pro-gender camp, aren't they

Yes, they are. The Advisory Board is made up of people steeped in bollocks Queer Ideology and Gender Studies. Such people have had the ear of governments and purported to be 'experts'. Instead, they have an agenda to perpetuate their careers and group-think.

We have to assume that they hoped young students, groomed into the new gender fluidity thinking, would complete the survey.

I think it's important to fill it in and make sure that they hear other opinions.

theOtherPamAyres · 12/10/2018 16:38

As to the meaning of 'legal gender' - this just means that you have been through an administrative process - like the one for a gender recognition certificate .

CuriousaboutSamphire · 12/10/2018 16:49

So they were never really looking for responses from the general population then? We really will have buggered up their research Grin

fiftyandfat · 12/10/2018 16:57

Are there no longer any necessary qualifications required to design these questionnaires?
I used to work in medical research and audit design and it is a very complex process requiring a specific skill set.
These days it seems as if anybody can throw a survey together, restrict access to specific biased, uneducated respondents then use the results to influence government policy.
Mad.

TimeLady · 12/10/2018 16:57

This three-year project on the Future of Legal Gender is funded by the UK Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC). It runs from May 2018 until April 2021.

From Wiki: The Economic and Social Research Council (ESRC) is one of the seven Research Councils in the United Kingdom. It receives most of its funding from the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills, and provides funding and support for research and training work in social and economic issues, such as postgraduate degrees.

I'd be cutting that department's budget Angry

TimeLady · 12/10/2018 17:00

Aims of The Project

futureoflegalgender.kcl.ac.uk/project/

It's the 'sex/gender' bit that got to me. Wtf do they mean by that?

This might be something to keep an eye on.

UnderMajorDomoMinor · 12/10/2018 17:05

Of all the people who might ‘assign’ (lol) you your gender the government definitely doesn’t! Really, do these people think you’re baby is delivered by a civil servant?

Your sex is recorded with reference you your primary sexual characteristics! You don’t get it pull out of a hat!

Imnobody4 · 12/10/2018 17:55

Bloody hell -is this really the standard of academia now days. Not only am I exhausted my blood pressures rocketed.Sometimes I just get a very strong intimations of dystopia.

SonicVersusGynaephobia · 12/10/2018 19:39

That took me hours. What a crock of shit.

HerFemaleness · 12/10/2018 19:44

That was certainly a strange experiencing. I repeatedly pointed out that nobody has their sex assigned at birth.

donquixotedelamancha · 12/10/2018 20:38

I got very irritated by this survey:

31. Have you had any positive experiences linked to your gender?

No. I don't have any experiences linked to unicorns either.

theOtherPamAyres · 12/10/2018 20:55

Have you had any positive experiences linked to your gender?

Tut tut! Grin You were meant to reply Yes and give examples like:

I get whistled at in the streets and complimented on my ample bosom.

Men open doors for me.
A judge referred to me as 'the fragrant Mrs. X" during his summing up.

If anyone wants to see how gender identity is based on sexism, that question illustrates the point perfectly. Hmm

donquixotedelamancha · 12/10/2018 21:05

I get whistled at in the streets and complimented on my ample bosom.
As a non woman, my ample bosom is not an asset. On that note the fucking question about 'are people who are not born men disadvantaged' really pissed me off.

Men open doors for me.
Men and women open doors for me, as I do for them. Neither group uses their genitals so this is one of the many things that puzzled me as to why it should be 'gendered'.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 12/10/2018 22:36

Doors is interesting.

There is normal way (go through and hold for person behind so it doesn't slam in their face) and "gentleman" way where a man sees a laydee approaching, holds in open and ushers them through first.

I find this irritating (minor) as it's one of the small things that reminds me that while I'm going around feeling like a person, a man decides to remind me that I'm a laydee.

The men at my work are big on this so I have been fucking with them a bit Grin when I get there first I pull the door open and usher them through with a cheery "after you!". Rough estimate on results - most look a bit surprised then bimble through. About 1 in 20 or so (not actually counting Grin) REFUSE. They literally say no. There have been stand off. Most end up going in a slightly huffy way as I'm holding the door and they really look silly. A couple have refused outright. They literally refused to walk through.

So, for men then, some of them anyway, this door holding lark has something going on more than just a bit of courtesy!

The other thing is you canbet none of the "gents" who make sure it's ladies first at the work lift would e.g. do it when catching a crowded commuter train, something tells me that they would have very sharp elbows indeed.

Anyway writing that I wonder if this is what is going on with some of it.

I wanted to be seen as a person and I was always seen as female FIRST, and then there were a whole bunch of expectations overlaid which usually didn't fit me, so I became a feminist. When I was quite young > I always thought, we should all be treated as people with no assumptions about what we like, are good at etc etc

So now, if I was young, would I say, I am being treated as the female gender, this is what most women want, to be recognised as female and then treated in a certain way. I don't like it, therefore I opt out. I'm non binary or something and I don't want men treating me "like a lady" so I need different pronouns and to tell everyone I'm non binary and then it won't happen and if / when it does, I will be very angry and upset.

This is a poor solution though surely? Structural sexism is not tackled at all, and if the person is recognisably female they will still get the sexism whether benevolent or otherwise, and spend all their time being pissed off as you can't really "opt out" of your sex, and it's sex that this is all about.

All those questions about being treated as a certain gender / expressing gender through clothes were a bit weird. Most people feel like people, surely? Hard to say > I know that's how I feel.

The questions were so weird. Would it cause problems for parents if a gender (sex?) is not "assigned" at birth. No? They will know what sex it is. Humans have known what sex their children are since before we had governments and hospitals and things...

Labradoodliedoodoo · 13/10/2018 09:04

I wrote about how as a young 13 year old teenager and women I have like many other women had my breasts intentionally touched and had men in raincoats pressing themselves against me while playing with themselves. That women and girls are vulnerable to physical actions of men and not just words. How important it is for women only spaces to exist

tediousnamechange · 13/10/2018 09:29

It's totally pissing me off now, I didn't finish yesterday and now back to q35. Angry

donquixotedelamancha · 13/10/2018 11:13

@NothingOnTellyAgain

About 1 in 20 or so (not actually counting grin) REFUSE. They literally say no. There have been stand off. Most end up going in a slightly huffy way as I'm holding the door and they really look silly. A couple have refused outright. They literally refused to walk through.

Your commute to work must be horrible- I hear traffic to the 1800s is really bad. Seriously, where the hell do you work?

I actually think the survey is trying hard to fairly analyse the spectrum of views on gender. Too many studies are just woke nonsense- this one is trying to speak both GC and genderstazi at once. The problem is that doing so it becomes incredibly hard to parse.