Definition of man and woman used in the GRA consultation

[Elisheva]

Apologies if this has been discussed already. I emailed the GRA consultation to ask which definitions of man/woman and male/female the government were using. This is the reply:

*The definitions you asked for are not provided [in the document]. However, to provide some context, the term ‘gender’ is is often the term used in the context of the Gender Recognition Act and the gender transition process. Although many people make a distinction between a person’s sex and their gender, this is not a distinction that is often re-produced in day-to-day usage of the terms, nor in the law, which uses the two terms interchangeably.

Indeed, in the text of the current GRA (section 9) it is stated that a person who changes their gender using the process outlined in the Act is also considered to have changed their sex.

Thank you for taking the time to write to the Government Equalities Office*

I’m not sure what to reply. There is so much wrong with this that I’m not sure it’s even worth engaging with.

I would argue that anyone who cannot define the terms they are using is actually being bloody unhelpful.

You, notveryblissful, have refused to share your supposed enlightened understanding of these topics with some of your own definitions, despite our OP and other posters requesting this.

So go on then.

Be crystal clear, for each term, like you are explaining to children, as that's clearly how intelligent you think we are. I would argue that your apparent assumption the women on this board are not clued up as to the terms/facts in this debate is actually quite sexist of you.

Define these words:

Sex-
Gender-
Female-
Woman-

They do not all mean the same thing, as several previous posters have pointed out.

Please remember:
Definitions must use ordinary language, be clear, not be circular, avoid contradictions, include all that needs to be in the definition, and exclude all that needs to be outside of the definition.

And it's up to women to decide what is in their interest, not an insulting poster who keeps calling us "cis" despite being told to stop.
If our legal rights as women are being eroded because trans activists want to allow any man to claim he is a woman, and therefore make it so that any man who says he is a woman must have free access to a female-only facility, then to me (and MANY other women), that's a HUGE problem.

Isn't cis a recently made up word? Not sure how not wanting to use it (or not knowing what it means) can be compared to denying the existence of a religion.

I do find definitions getting incredibly circular. I would have liked clearer guidance too.

‘Adult human female’ and ‘sex with capacity to bear eggs or produce young’ are standard dictionary definitions, not random phrases on the internet. It’s not a subjective concept - it’s how organisms including fish, birds, and mammals reproduce.

“The take backed by the law” is that people with a GRC are not always treated as having their acquired sex. Anyway, if there is one thing that people agree on it is that the current law is a bit of a fudge.

I actually desperately do not want this thread to be deleted. Just so that next time someone comes on and wonders why we’re a bit snippy about being asked to be nice they can just see exactly who we are asked to be nice to. Someone who has repeatedly been asked not to use cis, someone who calls us bigots and transphobes and refuses to engage with polite questions which might actually help us understand their position.

So, not once more for the record:

As you think we are all so horrible and wrong, please help us change our terrible ways and define woman. Please. With a cherry on top.

Speaking of cherries, I have a lovely cherry Bakewell recipe, if anyone wants it.

I don’t actually like cherries but I’m on a diet and I am so so desperate to eat cake. I made a massive chocolate cake for a friend’s birthday at the weekend and I didn’t get to taste it

I will be off to read some of the collected works of Bunbury now. That recipe does sound delicious, though.

All respect to Bunbury. Yes, I agree. Wonderful woman!

And it's years since I last read it, but Edwina Reardon's "Who Would Fardels Bear?" is also pertinent, I feel, in this context.

Smileyface thingy.

Well, here it is if anyone wants it:

CHERRY BAKEWELL TART

For the pastry:

300g plain flour, plus extra for dusting
150g chilled butter
75g ice-cold water

For the frangipane:

200g softened butter
200g caster sugar
4 medium eggs
200g ground almonds

For the cherry jam:
150g frozen cherries
150g frozen or fresh raspberries
100g caster sugar
flaked almonds, for decoration

▪First, make shortcrust pastry by weighing the flour into a large bowl.
▪Cut the butter into manageablechunks and add to the flour.
▪Rub them into eachother until your mixturelooks like breadcrumbs.
▪Weigh out the water and addaround 3/4 to the bowl.
▪Swirl a knife around to mixit a bit before using your hands.
▪Add more of the water, a little at a time andwork it in until it forms a ball.

▪Wrap ittightly in cling film and chill for aslong as you can spare (15+ mins).

▪Whilst the pastry is resting in the fridge, preheat the oven to 180°C/160°C fan/Gas 4 and grease a 12-inch tart tin.
▪Roll out your chilled pastry on a floured surface to the thickness of a £1 coin.
▪Roll it up around your rolling pin and place it in the tart tin.
▪Trim around the edges, leaving at least a centimetre overhang. Prick the base with a fork and chill for another 15 minutes.

▪Line your pastry case with a square of baking paper weighted down with some loose change or some baking beans.
▪Bake for 15–20 minutes, then remove the paper and bake for another 10 minutes until pale, but obviously cooked.

▪Whilst the case is baking, start the jam. ▪Put the cherries and raspberries into a pan with the sugar, place on a high heat and bring to a boil. Reduce the heat to medium and simmer until thick and jammy, stirring regularly. This will take about 10 minutes.

▪Make your frangipane whilst the pastry is baking bycramming the softened butter and sugar together.
▪Add the eggs and almonds and mix everything together.

▪When the pastry is baked, trim the excess with a sharp knife.
▪Spread your jam over the base and then cover carefully with frangipane.
▪Sprinkle the flaked almonds on top.
▪Return to the oven and bake for 20 minutes or until the frangipane is springy and golden.
▪You can add some whole cherries/raspberries on top of the jam layer and cover with the frangipane.

So have scanned the thread. Have we been joined by a 1st year woke gender studies Goldsmith student?

We appear to be witnessing the Dunning-Kruger effect in action, combined with the arrogance of youth. I usually feel torn between pity regarding the former and intense irritation due to the latter.

It would feel like less of an offensive waste of our time if these people would at least try to acquire some sort of actual grasp of the issues and the demographic here before marching in and trying to scold us for not accepting that black is white.

The real meaning of cis and trans (from organic chemistry).

www.masterorganicchemistry.com/tips/cis-and-trans/

They don’t mean what you think they mean, blissful. Not even a little bit.

HTH.

@notveryblissful given I’m not an isomer it’s pretty clear that cis doesn’t apply to me according to science.

I’m an adult human female therefore I’m a woman. That’s it’s it. Please stop being disrespectful if you actually want to have a discussion.

You are James from Brookes and I claim my twenty quid. Now be orf with you, pesky boy child narcissist that googles his own name. We can’t be bothered with your silly nonsense.

Do that three times on this forum and you'll get a ban.

This. It's recognised as a term which many women find offensive.

We appear to be witnessing the Dunning-Kruger effect in action

We only notice it because this isn't Twitter. It's jarring here. It's the majority there.

You like to think that you are the quite majority of something, but polls suggest otherwise.

I can promise you that's not true.

Terfs and transphobes will lose just like sexists, homophobes and racists

Yet here you are.

If gender and sex mean the same thing do we have another word that means biological sex? You know, xx or xy with male/female (does m/f still have a clear meaning?) reproductive systems and biology?

I might email them myself and ask for a clear definition of -

Male
Female
Man
Women
Trans
Sex
Gender
And an explanation of how we distinguish men from women, if indeed there is any such thing as man/woman.

I'm pretty sure that most normal members of the public do indeed make no distinction between sex and gender, between female and woman - but that they know full well that what sex is, that it's real, that humans are dimorphic (even if they don't know that word) and that sex can't actually be changed. They treat 'gender' as a euphemism for sex, not the other way round. But using 'gender' in this way now that it has acquired more complex meanings is confusing and should be avoided.

There's no confusion about sex, female and woman among ordinary people. What needs clarifying is the now diverged 'gender' and constructions such as 'gender identity, role, stereotype').

I'm seriously starting to worry about the level of science education in schools.
Just a reminder :
Science is not a democracy.
Law has to be very clear and precise in it's definitions in order to be effective.

I'm another poster who would like definitions of the words in the above list.
Let's at least be clear on what we're arguing about.

@Notveryblissful

You seem very clear in your understanding of language, could you please answer a question?

If a Trans women, has a child, their own biological child, are they the child's biological mother?

ust to clarify
definitions from the trans-rights campaigners (I already know the dictionary meanings)