Definition of man and woman used in the GRA consultation

[Elisheva]

Apologies if this has been discussed already. I emailed the GRA consultation to ask which definitions of man/woman and male/female the government were using. This is the reply:

*The definitions you asked for are not provided [in the document]. However, to provide some context, the term ‘gender’ is is often the term used in the context of the Gender Recognition Act and the gender transition process. Although many people make a distinction between a person’s sex and their gender, this is not a distinction that is often re-produced in day-to-day usage of the terms, nor in the law, which uses the two terms interchangeably.

Indeed, in the text of the current GRA (section 9) it is stated that a person who changes their gender using the process outlined in the Act is also considered to have changed their sex.

Thank you for taking the time to write to the Government Equalities Office*

I’m not sure what to reply. There is so much wrong with this that I’m not sure it’s even worth engaging with.

They haven't actually answered your question and defined those words.

That's because they know they can't without either:

A. Using stereotypes

Or

B. Using biology

So they've waffled about gender and ignored the question, hoping you won't notice, or will be too English to ask them to clarify it.

Also please explain what men have in common with each other that they don’t share with women.

Even if the idea that transwomen are women was accepted by most (which it isn't) people and so the language changed (which in most places, it hasn't), we would still be lacking the words we had before because cis and trans can't clear up the difficulty of talking about biological sex differences since transmen are also biological women, but they aren't cis.

Oh, now I've read further, I see that you've already noticed that, Elisheva..
The rest still stands though.

I’m not cis. I’m a female, given I’m over 18 and human I’m a woman. That’s it no qualifiers needed. Please stop call me and other women cis.

"you are women, and so are trans women, and they are also adult human females."

No, they are not. They are Male = Of the sec that can make sperm. They are not Female = Of the sex that can make eggs or bear young. These are dictionary definitions. You should really know the definitions of these words if you are going to come to a site populated mostly by mothers and try to teach us what womanhood is about.

"Female does not exclusively mean "biological" female... Trans women are females too."

You are wrong. "Female" is a biological term. The female of the species bears young or makes eggs. Cows are female, bulls are male. Chicken are female, roosters are male. Women are female, men are male.

Males who lose body hair and grow breasts due to a medical condition for example don't become female. Males who put on skirts and make up don't become female, either. If it makes them happy to physically approach the appearance of females with artificial hormones, surgery, makeup, vocal coaching etc that's all fine. However they are not and will never be Of the sex that bears young or makes eggs and therefore are not female.

@merrymouse I am not trans so I don't feel entirely comfortable putting forward a short definition, words are more complex and have greater meaning when what you type in a relatively short response on an internet forum. I also think you probably know what trans is and means. Somebody is trans if they identify with a gender/sex that is different from the one they were assigned at birth (or as people here like to put it biological sex). It does not mean someone who merely conforms to a different set of gender stereotypes than the one they are born with, as it often trotted out here. There is no conflation between rejecting gender stereotypes, and wanting everyone (cis or trans) to be able to live freely away from oppressive gender steryotypes and trans people being able to live as the gender/sex that they are and identify as. I could go on for pages about this, but the biggest issue with this forum is the number of total misunderstandings that are repeated about what being trans actually means.

Somebody who isn't trans (someone who is cis) is just somebody who doesn't identify with a different gender/sex than the one they were designated at birth, it has nothing to do with being gender non conforming.

You get gender non conforming cis women, gender confirming cis men, gender confirming trans men, and gender non conforming trans women.

I was going to respond to the interesting comments on p1 then wondered if this is where recipes come in handy?

I am trying to low-carb as usual. But oh what I would give for a big slab of Konditor & Cook’s Curly Wurly Cake - with its rich chocolate sponge and vanilla cream cheese frosting. Mmmmm...

@BoomBoomsCousin cis women and trans men (and vis versa) may share unique biological similarities, and if you are talking about everyone who is "biologically" female then you can just say cis women and trans men.

But many of those similarities are overridden in trans people because of the things that go on in transision such as hormone treatment and surgery. There is really no issue or loss from using cis and trans, trans people certainly don't feel any issues and the only time that it would actually be relevant in society would be for medical reasons, and you really shouldn't concern yourself with trans people's medical needs.

Sex based protections have nothing to do with gender identity. I don't know who decided gender identity was to reign supreme, but most people don't agree and are, in fact, baffled as to why it should be the case. Can you shed any light, Notveryblissful?

OP, great work. Who would have thought it would be so difficult?

And stop labelling people without their agreement. How rude!

Not Elisheva, obviously.

Well, I am still not cis. Nope. Was never assigned a gender - my sex was noted at birth. Don’t feel like a woman - I just am a woman. Sex = female. Gender = none. Personality = varied. There you go. Still not cis.

Ok so yes I guess you can have a non gender conforming transwoman - but that is still a man, who feels he is a woman, who perhaps doesn’t wear heels or lipstick or knit or something? Still male. Still an adult human male. Still not a woman.

notveryblissful Now I'm lost.
Isn't a gender non conforming trans woman just a man?

Also you are not designated a sex at birth.
The sex of both my DC was observed at the 20 week scan (this is very standard).

Lastly, if you include trans women in the definition of woman then you are changing the current definitions (see any dictionary) of man and woman.
Would you agree with this?

Notveryblissful How do you know that anyone, including ICJump, is “cis”?

CotDAzur's definitions are the ones used in academic circles (biology and other sciences) from primary school up to PHD.

"While there are different uses/contexts for each of the terms, with sex being used often more in (as someone said earlier) things like biology and gender being more in the context of people within society, that does not mean that the terms have totally distinct and seperate meanings, this is something that has been invented by anti-trans rights people in order to exclude trans people from being legitimate and the terms being applied to them."

Anyone with a basic knowledge of feminist history and/ or Google can see very easily that this is not true.

Gender meaning sex role/ stereotype has been around for longer than me. Tip pretend this is not true and that it was invented by evil women (cunty) to exclude lovely women (dicky) is a trump level, demonstrably untrue fib.

The knots and confusion in which people in this thread, and wider anti-trans rights people, are getting themselves into is just absurd.

Thank goodness you're here in good faith, Notveryblissful. We've been waiting for some anti-women's rights people to come along and help us untangle it all

If sex and gender mean the same, why have so many local authorities and other organisations INCLUDING THE EHRC had to change back the language on all their documents from 'gender' to 'sex' when women complained? Why didn't all their lawyers just say 'It's fine, they mean the same'?

Why did a High Court judge in June this year say In particular, a full understanding by all governmental departments, not just the GEO, will be required as to the clear distinction between the concepts of sex and gender.? (my emphasis)

Why, in 2004 when the gender recognition bill was being debated, did Lord Tebbit and Lord Filkin have this exchange (see image) Bullshit answer from Filkin but he still knew enough to say that sex and gender were not the same, even if he couldn't say why. Read the whole of @HairyLeggdHarpy's thread if you're interested in what the GRA was supposed to be for in the first place. It's very informative.

The law is made out of words. Some of them belong to us. You're not having them because those words secure our rights.

I agree that woman means the same as adult human female. Anti-woman activists have only got away with this bullshit for so long by trying to pretend they are different so it's an interesting tactic to decide they are the same thing after all.

Trans women are obviously not adult human females
We all appear to agree that adult human females are women
Therefore trans women are not women

I’m not ‘cis’.

Don’t misgender me, it’s a hate crime.

World health organisation try to change accepted meaning of sex/ gender which everyone knows are synonymous in attempt to be bastards to trans people shocker

"Introduction

Sex refers to the biological characteristics that distinguish females and males. Gender refers to the socially constructed characteristics of women and men – such as norms, roles, power and relationships.

Gender inequality is a root cause of inequitable health outcomes for women and girls."

www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/women-s-health

BASTARDS

Am also lol at "you are cis cos I say you are" :D

I thought were got to choose our own labels?

Not if you've got a cunt and are assumed to be over about 35, nope. Lol. Another shocker

Notveryblissful
ciswomen and transmen does not cover non-binary people does it? You accused posters on this board of tying themselves in knots over language, yet you are the one trying to tie the knots.

Women and female are synonymous. Sex and gender are synonymous. Trans women are women and trans women are adult human females.
I’m sorry if I’ve missed this notveryblissful, you may have mentioned this before, but what does woman/female mean. What is the definition that the trans community use? It seems to me that if we can agree on this then everything else should just fall into place. But people seem so reluctant.