Given that nearly every university student seems to believe TWAW, will sanity ever prevail?

[Velella]

That's it really. They are tomorrow's politicians, teachers, lawyers. I am at a loss to see how we can turn this round.

Countess you now owe me 49p

Thanks it looks good.

There were an awful lot of things that my friends and I believed when we were 18 and I utterly cringe at now.

MistressFunbox.

I was going to say I would happily buy a copy of Extraordinary Popular Delusions And The Madness of Crowds for a random strange on the internet because it is that good, but it turns out there's a free version.

I don't think every student thinks this at all. Like the wider public, they have been afraid to speak out. The tide however is turning as people are being peak transexual into what this insanity really means.

My experience is mostly of male students, who, from what I have seen, don't believe a word of the ideology and openly take the piss. However they can't be arsed getting involved in student politics, thereby leaving the way open for the likes of Jess Bradley. And of course it doesn't really affect them too much so they can afford to take that attitude.

I don't know so much about female student though and can well imagine they're more likely to take the 'let's be nice' line.

They certainly don't all think like this, if my DS and his friends are anything to go by. They are science students, though, so they don't have time for this nonsense - in every sense of the word!

In my experience, young people know and understand a lot more than people give them credit for here.

How come all your own kids are good enough at critical thinking to be 'gender critical', but everyone else's kids lack the faculties to hold a reasonable alternative opinion?

How come other young people who hold the view that trans women are women have been somehow duped or brainwashed, whereas you telling your own kids to be 'gender critical' is just you giving them information? What's the difference?

Teenagers are incredibly easy to brainwash spanna. Even very clever ones sometimes. You're trying to say that just maybe this idea that twaw is logical and sensible after all.

It isn't. I find it fascinating what you can get people to believe (I grew up very religious and am now an atheist). Humans are very odd animals.

I find it fascinating what you can get people to believe (I grew up very religious and am now an atheist)

Me too; it's made me aware of the importance of trying to teach a child how to think rationally rather than what to think.

Someone suggested on reddit that anyone forced to declare their pronouns should say "she/ him". That'll confuse them huh

But honestly, I think that the Internet gives a false impression on how many people of any age are really onside with the trans ideology

I think that saying "TWAW" just seems to me in many cases to be similar to people indulging a kid who says that they are a dinosaur - they're just playing along to be nice to the silly person, because they view them as pitiful.

If someone comes in and says "you are NOT a dinosaur, stop being silly" - they view that person as mean and nasty. But not because they really think that the kid is a dinosaur

When I came out as a lesbian nearly 40 years ago after separating from my husband ,my mother thought the sky would fall in !
I lost most of my friends , and when the so called friends realised they were wrong , I didnt want to know them ! And still dont !

In her last Few years Mum, was still expecting me to come to my senses and asked me in front of my girlfriend , have you got a boyfriend yet ?
Thinking if I put a dress on and grew my hair , I would conform to her view of normality ! Ha ha fat chance

like all the parents of us lesbians and gay men 30/40 years it was a phase we were all going through apparently ?

and the daughter my father forced me to give up for adoption when I was 16 is also a lesbian , I am happy for her , that she is happy and in a loving relationship

I can remember at an LGF meeting 35 years ago hearing one day we would all know someone who was HIV

and 25 years ago when LGTF came about how we would all know someone who was Transsexual

but it still worry s us lesbians , the amount of young women having chest surgeries , not taking hormones or having Hysterectomy's , but morphing into Demi Boi,s, using they /them pronouns but still in a relationship with another Demi Boi , but still planning children
we have all tried talking to them till we are blue in the face , they look at us old lesbians as if we are the mad ones !

If history has taught us nothing, its none of our business ! nobody has the right to impose their values on someone else's life
so don't fall out with friends over this , Politics or religion

PleasingFungusBeetle I agree. If the election of Trump and Brexit have shown us anything it's that a lot of people have opinions that aren't on the woke radar. They also never to seem to engage with the vast majority of men who like most women I think don't believe a word of any of the trans activist stuff and gender ideology where we pick our pronouns.

Think back to your university days, how much of the beliefs that you had then do you still hold now? I'd guess not many, university is a time for trying out and questioning different beliefs.

I firmly held on to all sorts of ludicrous nonsense beliefs until I was at least about 40 .

I stumbled across this article online from a PhD student recently and had the same concern as OP, whether people will grow out of this type of thinking and wouldn’t be great if some people could use some of that thoughtful kindness to think and question a bit more. 🤔 I mean, why might someone with a bit more life experience, have turned out a rad fem...?

But the full realisation of sexism can be very terrifying when you are young, female and you know that you can’t escape your own body (still is, even when you are a gimmer!) and I am not surprised that many young people want to believe they are not living in that world.

Also, apparently that type of more thoughtful introspective work would be wasting precious time and resources which they should really be using for the benefit of men

discoversociety.org/2018/04/03/viewpoint-understanding-anti-transgender-feminism/

Not read whole thread yet, but what on earth are the images for the gender neutral toilets in the Edinburgh University pronoun piece linked above?

There is one looking like he is wearing pantaloons, and one looking like she is wearing a crinoline from Victorian times. Am I missing something? In what way is that denoting gender neutral? Unless both symbols are on the same door? But what is with the dress?

There are a couple of really excellent comments under the article - you can tell the A grade students who apply critical thinking!

The other fallacy is this focus on an idea of science 'truth' or obviousness. Science does not always deal in absolutes- blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/what-it-means-when-scientists-disagree/

The science of transgender/gender/sex involves many different disciplines, some of which are more liable to dispute than others- consider the difference betwern psychology and endocrinology, for example.

The other fallacy is this focus on an idea of science 'truth' or obviousness. Science does not always deal in absolutes

Science does not always deal in absolutes, but regarding the shape of Planet Earth and the dimorphic nature of mammalian gamete it bloody well does. Neither endorinology, nor psychology nor gender studies have ever disputed either.

And here's a good summary (in a medical website, not a support group, pressure group or charity and from 2013 so before 'the trend') of why the science of sex and gender is far more complicated and up for discussion than people want it to be: sciencebasedmedicine.org/sex-gender-and-sexuality-its-complicated/

I'd pay good money to watch the TRAs tell this lot that a woman can have a penis.

And here's a good summary (in a medical website, not a support group, pressure group or charity and from 2013 so before 'the trend') of why the science of sex and gender is far more complicated and up for discussion than people want it to be

You are making my point. This is not a scientific paper, the author is not a scientist (just a family MD), and the article was not peer reviewed and conflates sex and gender. This has nothing to do with science.

Humans are still a dimorphic species as there are only two types of gamete.

It is patently absurd how some people insist on the 'not real maleness, because nature made sex a spectrum' of males in dresses whose natural adult body could easily impregnate any fertile female at any time.

And here's a good summary (in a medical website, not a support group, pressure group or charity and from 2013 so before 'the trend') of why the science of sex and gender is far more complicated and up for discussion than people want it to be

If one of my students used that as a reference they would not be getting a very good grade. Not academic journal, not peer reviewed, fairly old.

I'm not saying there is definitely NOT a peer reviewed, academic journal article on this topic-but that is not an example of one.

it's made me aware of the importance of trying to teach a child how to think rationally rather than what to think.

I hope we are doing this as well.

We watch a lot of history and science programs - and give them books I hope will get them thinking.

When I reference academic journals people complain they can't get access. When I don't, people complain it's not academic.

Anyhoo.

The point is, sex and gender are not just about gametes. Eg what do you do with a genetically female person who has grown a functioning set of male genitals?