Gender neutral toilets at Bournemouth Uni **Thread title edited by MNHQ**

[PretendingToBeAMuggle]

Please can you help me with links/arguments against men in female toilets? (I'm waiting for clarification as to whether this is a post for a third toilet space - gender neutral, rather than encroaching on female only spaces.) But expect to get massive flak and probably backlash. This is a group I'm in on Facebook which promotes being 'woke' and is probably full of TRAs waiting to shout Down and dissent. As you can tell I'm not very articulate but any help to my argument would be greatly appreciated, I'll post screenshots below

Any links to disprove this?

And now the anger and 'shock' emoticons start. No argument just shitty fucking emoticons to tell me I'm wrong. Fuck off, explain yourselves and your argument, don't just post disapproving faces, any fool can do that if you believe any question of trans right are being attacked. Take a second to think 🤯

Nope, not had any of those things happen to me from men either.

Haven't you, Will? Oh well.

I have, as have pretty much all of the women I know. Starting from the age of about twelve in my case, as soon as I got breasts. It's been a regular occurrence throughout my life. Pretty sure I didn't imagine it, especially the being wanked at stuff, that was delightful.

Not one incident was from a woman.

Seems to be a theme there somewhere, but for the life of me I can't think what it might be.

And quite frankly, she wasn't attacked was she. The way some folks go on it's like every trans person wishes to assault them. Ffs.

Where did I say he was trans? He was male. That is my problem. Males in spaces that had previously been afforded to women as single-sex ones.

Adding a few unisex loos is good, but any institution which is thinking of making them the default or only option should do a very serious Chesterton's Fence analysis.
If you don't understand why women's loos exist then you have absolutely no business removing them. If you do properly understand why they exist you might possibly be able to design workable unisex facilities.

We went to a University open day to somewhere with gender neutral loos.
I found the one I used quite intimidating,it was a big space with multiple little corridors,not well lit,and not particularly busy - I realise I've been conditioned my whole life to avoid large semi enclosed spaces where men with ill intent could be lurking - deserted car park, stairwells,lifts,train carriages - this was just like that and I'm not usually particularly bothered.
And that is nothing at all to do with trans people, it's to do with sharing a large semi deserted space with strange men.

Just back from my walk, and saw this headline on the Irish Sunday Indepentent
www.pressreader.com/ireland/sunday-independent-ireland/20181007/281479277363653

When I googled it, this was right underneath
www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/female-us-navy-sailors-secretly-filmed-in-submarine-showers-9905483.html

The American link says "The report also claims that the recordings took place in the boat's unisex bathrooms."

Women aren't safe from being perved at anywhere and reducing the safeguards will just make it worse.

Ask the women what they would think and do today if they saw a man follow their daughter into the women's toilets say at a shopping centre or cinema.

Would they a) be entirely cool with it? b) follow him in to make sure nothing happened? or c) challenge him?

I don't believe for a minute they would do a unless they are neglectful or stupid generally.

And if they would do b or c today, why would it then have to be ok tommorrow if self iD came in overnight?

I've been shut down and they continue to slate me without a chance to recourse. NOONE touched the question 'are there potential negatives to self ID' with a bargepole. Please join this group and educate, although you will have limited time before you get banned.there are 2300 members

The risks of gender neutral toilets, showers and changing rooms are evidenced here
www.edp24.co.uknews/man-who-secretly-filmed-female-students-in-toilets-at-university-of-east-anglia-in-norwich-to-be-sentenced-today-1-4790075?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Social_Icon&utm_campaign=in_article_social_icons

Michael Conroy has an on-point recent thread about lavatory facilities (some fine discussion in the thread):

This is where we are and it's a disgrace. A young woman DM'd me to share this. I'm livid & sad and don't understand how we've got to this depth of sexist stupidity. We should all be livid.

twitter.com/MichaelConroy68/status/1043531943520944128

It’s at Manchester uni too. They’re vile. I hate having to use them.

They’re vile because they’re filthy I mean. Piss everywhere. I don’t think it’s women’s piss, let’s put it that way!

Many universities have gender neutral toilets now. The ones at UEA I used consisted of a very open communal space for hand washing (no door from the Hive area) and separate enclosed cubicles for doing your business. It was clean, very well lit and I felt safe.

The story about the man filming in the UEA toilets would have happened in single sex toilets as he could have still sneaked in filming equipment so gender neutral toilets were not solely to blame for this man's actions.

PrincessScarlett The fact that women's toilets (or individual cubicles) are not 100% safe already, is exactly the reason that we shouldn't make is any easier for men to abuse us.

One of the most obvious red flags a woman can see is if a man looks like he is about to follow her into the women's toilets.

If I see that (and I have) I definitely don't go in. It is a simple as that. You stay where there are other people and get away from him.

If you see a man hanging around the women's toilets you might well report him and/or let other women know what you have seen. You will likely remember his face - if he is dodgy then this could help with catching/ convicting him. Most offenders do not especially want to get caught.

With self ID none of that will be possible, because the bloke might identify as woman, and he will be the one screaming blue murder if he feels his rights have been infringed.

Additional mixed individual toilet cubicles are fine, wholesale conversion of women's blocks to unisex is not.

Arguing seems futile, when you're made to feel close minded then shut down and barred from participation in the discussion, while others continue to label you negatively

Maybe the women students just need to start deficating into doggy poo bags and leaving it in the diversity officer's inbox?

I was recently in a UCL building with gender neutral toilets. It was like a traditional public loo with a door from the corridor leading into a long space with a row of individual cubicles. The toilets were (I think) the only ones on that floor of the building but they and the corridor were very quiet. I was happy at first that the cubicles were fully enclosed floor-to-ceiling with sinks inside.

However, the space between the long wall and row of cubicle doors was really narrow. One time I was coming out of a cubicle in the middle of the row, I had to squeeze by a man who was trying to get past me to a free cubicle at the end. Even though he as an individual was unthreatening, the situation was unpleasant and set my alarm bells ringing. I realised how easily I could be trapped at the end of the long room and pushed into an empty cubicle. What's more, the floor-to-ceiling sealed off cubicles would mean blocked so much sound that no one on the corridor would hear me if I screamed. I actually avoided visiting the toilets in that building again for the rest of the time I was there as I just didn't feel safe.

You're missing my point.

Gender is a protected characteristic, like race, age sexuality.

Imagine if I said I didn't want blacks in the men's toilets because both times I've been burgled the perpetrator was coloured... It would be unacceptable. That's how I feel when I see comments about being suspicious of all men, because some men are bad.

I think you’re missing the point Will. Spectacularly.

I meant to add, there is no evidence from the original post that the female/women's/XX toilets are being replaced completely, if they are being split up - fine, provided the same thing happens to the men's toilets as well...

Back to one of my original points, equality means that either every individual subgroup (and Lord knows there are dozens and dozens now) needs to have their own equally apportioned facilities, or, the facilities must be a single facility shared by everyone.

If you have male, female and gender neutral toilets, you can bet its only a matter of time before there are demands for specific trans-male, trans-female, cis-male, cis-female, and a toilet with a cis-male in and a trans female out door just in-case your gender fluidity kicks in whilst you're taking a piss.

Oh FFS WillChellam, men belong to the sex class (male) that habitually assaults those that belong to the other sex class (female). Even a cursory look at the stats will show you that males are the ones who assault women, not the other way round. Yes, that happens very occasionally, but so infrequently we really don't need to bother about it.

Why do you think we have historically separated people with male bodies from those with female bodies when the latter are vulnerable in some way, like using toilets, getting (semi) naked or sleeping? It's an acknowledgement of that fact. We are getting very bored with having to point out to numpties that yes, we know it's not all men .... blah blah blah. Did you hear about young school girls' experiences of being catcalled by grown men yesterday? This stuff is central, sadly, to many females lives and IT IS MEN WHO DO IT.

As for you trotting out the ludicrous comparison with racism, that is so not the case. The thing here is that the male body is the threat. Nobody rapes with the colour of their skin. They rape with a penis, no matter what its colour. You also seem to be equating being burgled with being sexually assaulted. You really think that?

They’re vile because they’re filthy I mean. Piss everywhere. I don’t think it’s women’s piss, let’s put it that way!

Unisex toilets have been around for as long as I can remember. By unisex I mean one toilet cubicle with self contained sink etc but available for everyone to use. At the hospital I attend most of the toilets (and there are lots) are unisex and accessible. I have never found them filthy with piss everywhere.

I have been in women's toilets and found used sanitary towels and tampons on the floor, on top of the bins etc. At work we are constantly getting memos to leave the ladies toilets in a better state - they are disgusting.

I understand concerns about men going into the more traditional toilets ie a room with several cubicles because women feel unsafe, but really why complain about "piss on the seats"? That is not only men (a lot of ladies loos have that twee poem about being a sweetie and wiping the seatie!)

This silly argument just trivialises what is a concern for lots of people.