“Transwomen should be treated on female wards”

[Poppyred85]

So says Olivia Butterwoth, leader of Patient and Public Voice team at NHS England.
This is a screenshot from the GG Twitter feed linked to on another thread. I noticed the conversation while reading through it.
I don’t know how influential her role is but I find it worrying that the leader of a group representing patients thinks this. I’ve spent enough time working on NHS wards to know how important single sex wards are to women going through gynaecology procedures, miscarriages and early pregnancy complications.
I also know how vulnerable I felt when I was one of those patients and how much I appreciated that the other patients around me were women.
Once again this is about not just safety, but the privacy and dignity of women and our right to sometimes have spaces free from males or male bodies.

There arent any mixed wards where i work ild? Do you mean single sex bays within a ward?

I've had a great deal of hospital treatment, including 2 major spinal surgeries, I was totally unable to even turn myself over in bed after both. I had catheters and and also had nurses changing my sanitary towels and washing me as I could do none of this myself.

No way would it have been appropriate for me to be on a mixed ward. Apart from the dignity and privacy aspects, the thought of being trapped and unable to move myself, if men had been on the ward too would have been unbearable, especially as a survivor of sexual violence.

My eldest daughter is on a single sex psychiatric secure ward (private but NHS funded), for women with personality disorders, psychosis etc. It would be disastrous to put a transwomen in with the women on her ward. But I'm thinking the way things are going, this is a very real possibility!

This whole argument is confusing me. Are transwomen sexual predators or not??

Fuck this shit.

I think its not so much saying transwomen are sexual predators, although pp above said transwomen inc men who get off being in womens clothes. More its men who can be dangerous, irrespective of how they ‘feelz’

pom I agree. That's why the way Posie explains it, "what is a woman," "should my daughter have to see a penis in her changing room," and then gradually moving on the conversation is very smart.
People do shut down, almost like a protective mechanism.

How would you propose the subject be broached?

It's a gradual process, but people need to be asked questions to start thinking about it. Nobody just changes their mind, but you need to sow those seeds of critical thought. Even if the person decides to retain their original position after hearing all the arguments, at least they have THOUGHT ABOUT IT.

I am tempted to put up picture of Jess Bradley. Ask male or female ward for this non-binary trans woman? Ask how you are going to explain this to your concerned frail female patient from a different cultural background (try translating trans ideology to someone whose native tongue is not English)? Ask if that patient has a right to object to Bradley's presence in the space where she feels most vulnerable? Ask whether the penis exhibition allegations make a difference to risk assessment? Check whether she knows that Jess Bradley is a high profile trans activist still employed by the NUS and fully under the trans umbrella? Ask where the line is for female ward allocation, and is there any circumstance where a biological male who says they identify as a woman would NOT be allowed to stay on a female space?

"This whole argument is confusing me. Are transwomen sexual predators or not??"

Single sex spaces exist for a very good reason. It doesn't matter whether a male identifies as a man or a woman, they're still not female and a vulnerable woman on a ward has enough to worry about.

Having men in the postnatal ward was bad enough. Horrible feeling.

Some are, some aren't, just like other people, welsh. But whether an individual is the nicest individual in the world is actually beside the point.

Regardless of their intentions, if you're a woman on a surgical ward with, say, a catheter poking out from under your surgical gown, unable to wear knickers because of it. you might find what was already an awkward and embarrassing and undignified experience made even worse if you had to share your bay of the ward with a male-bodied individual, however that individual chose to conceptualise themselves.

And if you were on a psychiatric ward, struggling with some sort of mental health issue, the cognitive dissonance required to tell yourself that this male-bodied person was a woman really might be quite literally beyond your mental capacities, and be intensely distressing, to the point of making your mental illness worse. (Someone linked to a newspaper article where another woman on a closed psych ward, suffering from PTSD brought on by sexual abuse, was having psychotic episodes such that any male-bodied individual was triggering to her. She couldn't even be around her own husband. The HCPs put a male-bodied individual on the ward, with obvious results, then criticised her for her transphobia when she had a full-on breakdown.)

You don't go on the gynae ward unless you are having gynae surgery which they won't be, so......

Not true

As a social worker I can categorically state that I regularly discharge people from the gynae ward that are not there for any gynaecological reasons.

For the last 10 years I have been in practise this has mainly meant that women that can't be squeezed on to the appropriate surgical/general wards get chucked to the gynae wards where their appropriate medical treatment is subsequently sidelined and ignored.

It's not the fault of the staff on that ward, if you are a medical professional specialising in vaginas and wombs it's hardly surprising that you are a bit stuck when the surgical team chucks you a female appendectomy to look after, or a female with alcoholic ascites excuse no one else can be arsed to deal with her.

Wimmins problems innit.

Only now women without vaginas or a uterus can also be transferred to the gynae wards too.

Fuck me

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jul/30/mixed-sexed-wards-endanger-and-humiliate-women

Theres a reason we phased them out. I actually dispair
Esp important on MH ward. My mate was a MH in patient support worker and she told me how disruptive men self-IDing as women were on ward. Most women victims of assault and it's very traumatic. Then you see evidence like this.

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/sep/11/nhs-care-regulator-says-sexual-incidents-commonplace-in-mental-health-units

www.theguardian.com/society/2002/apr/24/mentalhealth

All hospital trusts will have two relevent policies. One is the same sex ward /accomodation policy and the other the transgender policy. They both need to be read together. I have seen a few recently and they seem to be in conflict.

Solent NHS Trust:
The NHS Constitution, 2013, p3 states that respect, dignity, compassion and care should be at the core of how patients and staff are treated.
The Handbook to the NHS Constitution, March 2013, p 42 states that providers of NHS care are expected to eliminate mixed sex accommodation except where it is in the best interest of the patient involved, or reflects their personal choice.
High Quality Care for All (2008), Lord Darzi’s review of the NHS, identifies the need to organise care around the individual, ‘not just clinically but in terms of dignity and respect’.
The Chief Nursing Officer’s report on privacy and dignity (2007) identifies samesex accommodation as a ‘visible affirmation’ of the NHS’ commitment to privacy and dignity.
www.solent.nhs.uk/_store/documents/cls09deliveringsamesexaccomodation2015.pdf

In some trusts, it is possible to see where/when and by whom a same sex ward/accomodation policy has been modified /updated to include the transgender policy eg UHSM (Tara Hewitt)

CQC guidance (2015)www.cqc.org.uk/sites/default/files/20150328%20CQC%20mental%20health%20brief%20guide%20-%20Same-sex%20accommodation.pdf

Within the transgender policy also be aware of the policy guidelines for children eg From Yorkshire and Humber Protocol:
(extract)
"Gender variant children and young people should be accorded the same respect for their self-defined gender as are Tran’s adults, regardless of their genital sex.
Where there is no segregation, as is often the case with children, there may be no requirement to treat a young gender variant person any differently from other children and young people. Where segregation is deemed necessary, then it should be in accordance with the dress, preferred name and/or stated gender identity of the child or young person.
In some instances, parents or those with parental responsibility may have a view that is not consistent with the child’s view. If possible, the child’s preference should prevail even if the child is not Gillick competent.
www.barnsleyhospital.nhs.uk/equalitydiversity/files/2012/01/Providing-Hospital-Services-to-Trans-Patients-Protocol-2012.pdf

What kind of sick fuck would name themselves Christyl Knight?

January 2018 Lancaster Guardian:
(extract)
"A Lancaster mum whose bi-polar disorder left her believing men were conspiring to kill her said she was left terrified when she was locked on a women’s psychiatric ward with an “extremely male-bodied” transgender patient. Philippa Molloy, 42, said she was “genuinely, absolutely terrified” because she had suffered a relapse in her condition that made her irrationally terrified of men – including her own husband.

When she raised her concerns with hospital staff, however, she said she was not taken seriously and her medical notes implied that she was a “transphobic bigot”. She said the NHS had failed to think through the implications of allowing patients to self-identify their gender." (continues)

www.lancasterguardian.co.uk/news/lancaster-mum-with-fear-of-men-locked-on-hospital-ward-with-transgender-patient-1-8963648

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3297578-NHS-confuse-sex-and-gender-on-advice-about-The-Mental-Health-Act

In that video, Tara Hewitt talks about people going from "one gender binary to another gender binary" which is actually logically impossible.

You can cross a gender binary, though ...

Not the brightest pea in the pod but paid to educate others, hmmmm ...

I have been on a female psychiatric assessment ward with a trans person who identified as female but had not had the surgery and this must have been over a year ago now. So this has been happening for a while now

Arrrrrrrrrrrgh. I hate all this. It is so fucked up. And cruel to women. TW are not Women.

I haven't watched that video before. All I can hear when Hewitt talks is "fetish.. sexualisation.. fetish.. kink, sex sex SEX. Bring my fetish to work day.. Me me me me.. most special... most cancery.. cult cult cult... you must do this... obey my power to dictate terms to you.. most traumatic.. me me me (MUMMY)"

God forbid a doctor should talk about the biological sex of a patient or that we should not all bow down to your fucking identity.

And then this trans fucking umbrella. Choosing to side with fetishistic cross dressers over women tells me so much.

I probably should have deleted as have nothing constructive to add but am posting anyway.

I'd really like someone to explain why grouping by gender expression in a medical or indeed any other setting is preferable above grouping by sex.

As far as I can see it's meaningless, whereas there are clear reasons for grouping by sex.

heresy's post up thread.
Yes.

Seafarer. Don't delete. I hear that too. I watched the Tara Hewitt video a few months ago as someone posted it here. I remain quite horrified by it what I saw. They're not even trying to hide the take over of transgender status by cross dressing men, instead they're using their platform to brainwash women into thinking that doesn't matter in the name of equality.

I can assure you than trans people do not pass better when they are elderly neither do they pass better when they are very ill - it takes energy to keep the social exterior.

Pom
I've just peak transed all over again with that Tara Hewitt video. I'm aghast.

So this person advises NHS trusts and staff across the country?

Where is the research that 300,000 'trans' people get cancer? If, in Tara's broad umbrella terms, trans includes non-binary and cross dressing males every bloody body how on earth did they pluck that figure out? Especially when Tara says something like (and I paraphrase) that people tend to think trans people have had surgery ad this isn't really the case (before talking about drag kings and fetishists)

"We don't really use the term transsexual"

And at the end Tara said... "some women don't have a vagina. Some men don't have penises."

"Some use 'cock' to talk about their clitoris and some people use the word clitoris to talk about their penis."

Nobody asked any questions. I imagine a few were peak transed in that room.

Please tell me that was a Peter Kay sketch..otherwise the NHS is screwed.

If you say you are transgender your NHS records will be changed to your preferred gender if you ask. No diagnosis of GD or a GRC needed. That is happening now.

There was a bloke saying that surely a clitoris is a "rudimentary penis" in the comments in one of the recent Times articles. Perhaps that's about Tara's level of understanding of the female body.