Talked with trans-ally dd this evening.

[JellySlice]

Dd is 15, and knows that we have opposite opinions on trans issues. She saw my FPFW pack (which I had deliberately left open on the kitchen table) and asked me about it.

She listened carefully to what I had to say, asked questions, tried to present her viewpoint. I lost her when I explained that I don't think that I should have to lie because someone else wants to be different.

But during the conversation dd cried. Not sobbing, just a red face and wet eyes. And my heart broke for her. The rational part of her keeps getting glimpses of the Emperor's bare skin, but the female-socialised, compassionate, SM-influenced teenager can't cope with the contradictions. She has autistic traits, and once she believes something finds it very difficult to change her belief. Plus she's GNC and sees that as something she has in common with transpeople, rather than having her femaleness in common with women.

And my heart broke for her. She's trying to be a good, kind person. She's swallowed all the "you can be anything you want" and the "we should be inclusive of people who are different ", and now we telling her that that's wrong. And she cannot conceive of a world where she has no rights, and has no idea of what she stands to lose.

She doesn't live in a world where she has no rights.

Has your DD read Jane Clare Jones' posts? It's hard but the issue of trans is a stage on the way to the progress of totalitarianism. The most recent one is shocking but her earlier ones are spot on about why these issues are not to be compared with the struggle for gay rights etc. of previous years.

For those of you out there still sitting on the fence, or who still believe that I, and everyone opposing this ‘civil rights movement’, is just a nasty evil hate-mongering bigot, please, if you give one shit about women and the protection of women, wake-the-fuck-up. This is actually happening, it’s scary as shit, and we may well be running out of time. This is what woman-hating totalitarianism looks like. This is not a fucking drill.

janeclarejones.com/2018/09/26/twitter-trans-rights-totalitarianism-and-the-erasure-of-sex/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

But we should be inclusive of people who are different - of course - that has always been true and remains so. Treating people trans or (anyone different) with dignity, respect and ensuring that they have equal access to opportunities and services does not need to and absolutely should not come at the expense of women (and children's - as it is generally the women that safeguard) hard won rights. It is a false dichotomy set up by the trans lobby which helps no one - least of all those with actual gender dsyphoria

The need for dignity/ respect etc is not at issue - it's the 'how' it is best provided for (and there are other alternatives that could be considered such as 'third' spaces etc)

No, Lass, she doesn't - right now.

But when I was her age it was legal for a husband to rape his wife. A married woman had no right say "No" to her husband.

When I was her age "She was wearing a miniskirt so she was asking for it. She was leading me on." was an acceptable defence against a charge of rape.

When my mother was her age she had to get my father's permission to get a job.

When my grandmother was her age she had a secret and illegal abortion that nearly killed her.

My other grandmother had no more children because of birth injuries that she was too embarrassed to talk to the doctor about. So she suffered for the rest of her life.

Can you conceive of that now? Because that's where we'll be heading back to if women's right are erased.

She's 15. They grow out of it. Stay strong.

Can you conceive of that now? Because that's where we'll be heading back to if women's right are erased

No that is not where we are heading. You are doing her no favours.

she's GNC and sees that as something she has in common with transpeople, rather than having her femaleness in common with women

This is so sad.

We're all GNC in ways. I wish I was MORE GNC, quite honestly. In many ways I wish I DIDN'T have the responsibilities of mothering and nurturing and all the female socialisation shit around domesticity and wifework and ALL THAT STUFF. My life would be easier.

I feel desperately for your DD. Everyone wants people to be nice to people. That's a young, female, human perspective. It's just a bit naive, is all. But idealism isn't always a terrible thing.

I also feel for you. You sound awesome.

We are heading for a future when women don't have the right to single sex spaces and provisions, though. Which will inevitably (and already has) lead to public life becoming more risky for some (most) women. And I believe it is likely to lead to a backslide on women's representation in positions of power.

We're not going backwards in a straight line, obviously (e.g. I don't think there's any reason to worry about marital rape being made legal again), and on many issues I believe women's rights do actually continue to progress. But women obviously stand to lose out if it comes to pass that we no longer exist as a legal class.

That unnecessary, Reanimated. Reported.

This whole thing is especially hard on autistic kids because they're so literal and nuance is hard for them. Keep your chin up, OP - it may take her a while to work through all of this but she'll get there eventually.

And agree with Foldy - taking potshots at mums reaching out about trouble with their kids is about as un-Mumsnetty as it gets. There is absolutely nothing in that post to indicate that OP doesn't love her child.

I never hear anything about such issues except on here, am surprised your daughter does. Most of us go through our daily lives without it.
Poor kid, it must be confusing for her. I wouldn't be keen on her SM tendencies though.

I empathise so, so much. My youngest dd is 16, gnc, has autistic traits and is a trans ally, and sometimes describes herself as gender fluid.

We don’t really talk much about the current debates, as she prefers not to hear my views. But I think she and her friends alike are completely unaware of the proposed changes to the gra, and the implications. I think, that for them, it is more simply a matter of whether we are for or against trans people.
Does your daughter realise that the proposed chnages, and what we are so strongly disagreeing with, is letting anyone whatsoever label themselves trans and/or a woman?
For my daughter, I think what might get her to see my view, would be to explain that these changes will not help people with gender dysphoria, who can already get a grc.
I also think it could help to point out, that TRAs don’t actually give a damn about dysphoric adolescents, it’s all about the cross-dressers and autogynephiles.
Though like I said, I haven’t actually gotten as far as having an open conversation with my daughter about it, so you are way ahead of me there.

Reanimated your post is abhorrent

OP, these two bits of your post seem to be giving out a message which is at odds to how I view the situation.

Plus she's GNC and sees that as something she has in common with transpeople, rather than having her femaleness in common with women.

She's swallowed all the "you can be anything you want" and the "we should be inclusive of people who are different ", and now we telling her that that's wrong.

I agree that she has the GNC in common with transpeople, and I also think that you can be anything you want, and that we should be inclusive. I don't think any of that is wrong at all.

The problem with the gender ideologists is that being GNC or being anything you want and being inclusive all becomes about changing sex and everyone having to go along with the pretence that a transgender person really has changed sex.

My response is that a GNC woman is still a woman. Being anything you want and being inclusive is about accepting people as they are, with one single limitation - that you can't change sex.

In some ways it's them who are not inclusive. The push in schools for children to think about their 'gender identity' is part of this problem. It implies that certain traits and personalities and preferences somehow align with one sex or the other, and if you have a gender identity which doesn't align, then you must be trans and need to have your body modified to match. It's the modern version of changing your personality to fit your body. It is equally regressive and is the opposite of acceptance and inclusion.

The latest story in the times could be very useful.
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0eba70ea-c1da-11e8-a932-84839f5183a4

Girl guides will encourage tom boys to leave while trans girls will be included. This looks like you are grouping people based on their 'gender' not actual sex. Ask her, as a GNC woman does she think she is not really a woman or would be more suited to hanging out with the boys? Remind her that this has the effect of isolating lesbians (as most people with questions re their gender are bi/gay) from other women. That sounds homophobic and cruel to me. I think this is where we are going, its where the logic is leading us.

You really told her she shouldn’t be inclusive of people who are different?

I am concerned that trans identifying people are being sold a lie. I think it's genuinely cruel to state that they can change sex when they physically can't and that the only people who deny this wish to hate them/remove them from the earth/deny that they exist. Your poor compassionate dd. It's not the men who are unpleasant to trans identified people in real life who ever care about other's feelings in this way.

What I always say to people is this is not actually about trans people. It’s about violent and abusive men. Violent and abusive men:

• should not be allowed to harass or assist other people in the toilets regardless of appearance or clothing
• should not be allowed to pretend to be trans in order to abuse women or child

Am I for trans rights? Of course! Do I think that means anyone can say they are trans and therefore access women / children? No!

I also worry that if transwomen become part of the category of women, then the struggles unique to being trans are erased. Same for transmen. I want to live in a world where everyone can be proud of their lives, their bodies, their journey - not one in which people are desperately worried about ‘passing’ to the point where they feel the need to erase parts of their identity and self.

I do worry about the erasure of women too but people don’t ‘get’ that as much so I don’t lead with it.

I guess it depends what GNC means for her but I genuinely cannot think of any scenario in which my beliefs would oppress her.

Assist? Should say assault

A lot of the language used can be confusing. We may think we are inclusive of transpeople, but I think they view our desire to keep single sex spaces like toilets, changing rooms and refuges single sex quite differently. I think this is what OP meant.

I have issues with the way erasure is used by both sides. No-one is going to be erased. Transpeople aren't going anywhere and neither are we. The main thing I can see is at risk of erasure is the biological concept of woman and the rights that flow from that.

I think that some use of language in this debate is clumsy, which is to be expected to some extent. We're humans, we make mistakes from time to time. But some language used is careless and some exaggerates, which I don't think is helpful. Measured, logical responses are more likely to win people over.

Typical guilt inducing rhetoric from Reanimated. Reported.

You can be anything you want except a biological woman

I'm autistic and feel for her (and you). I'm part of a few groups, and so many of us struggled with puberty in ways that others didn't. We all had issues with being typical girls and mostly thought we were men in the wrong bodies.

We also religiously believed things like zealots, and once we thought we were right, god help anyone who tried to contradict us.

Sadly the only thing that will help is her growing up and getting through all the confusion and difficulty and getting to the place where there's stability again around her.

Its hard. Especially when all they get online is the cultist bs people like reanamiated spout.

DD1 is very scientific so she's been sensible about this for ever. Her best friend is trans and she respects their pronouns etc. She loves and supports them but crucially has been discouraging them from taking blockers and hopefully hormones in the near future. I'm hoping that this poor (traumatised) kid will realise it's fine to be gender non conforming at some point, at least they'll get to adult when they make the final decision. I worry about them at uni though. Really do.

DD2 is steeped in the alternative scene but even she's seeing through the brainwashing. There's some obnoxious (bullying) kids in her class that flip flop gender and use it to gain attention. They've peaked her I think. It's funny how trans activists, even little ones, can peak people.

It's odd because it's like the whole debate in microcosm. Some child that might well be trans (although i think more non binary ) and one who just wants to be "centred" e.g. look at me and do what I say.