Talked with trans-ally dd this evening.

[JellySlice]

Dd is 15, and knows that we have opposite opinions on trans issues. She saw my FPFW pack (which I had deliberately left open on the kitchen table) and asked me about it.

She listened carefully to what I had to say, asked questions, tried to present her viewpoint. I lost her when I explained that I don't think that I should have to lie because someone else wants to be different.

But during the conversation dd cried. Not sobbing, just a red face and wet eyes. And my heart broke for her. The rational part of her keeps getting glimpses of the Emperor's bare skin, but the female-socialised, compassionate, SM-influenced teenager can't cope with the contradictions. She has autistic traits, and once she believes something finds it very difficult to change her belief. Plus she's GNC and sees that as something she has in common with transpeople, rather than having her femaleness in common with women.

And my heart broke for her. She's trying to be a good, kind person. She's swallowed all the "you can be anything you want" and the "we should be inclusive of people who are different ", and now we telling her that that's wrong. And she cannot conceive of a world where she has no rights, and has no idea of what she stands to lose.

No, you don't owe apologies . She's autistic and naive, thank god she has you.

So your sex is female or male and then you have the option to select a gender in the same way some forms might allow you to note your religious affiliation.

Yes, then one has the option to declare oneself as a non-believer.

yes, this

If a form asks for “gender” and has an “other” option, I select “other” and write “Sex = female. Gender = I do not identify with stereotypes”.

Cliques Fantastic post, thank you.

No, you don't owe apologies confused. She's autistic and naive, thank god she has you

Of course she is owed an apology. She has ever right to have her own opinion, and that opinion is as valid as the ops. Plenty of people. Neither naive or autistic ( how offensive to indicate this is what's leading to her opinion) share the same opinion as the daughter.

As adults, we can hear another opinion and agree to disagree, but see the others view point. Putting someone down as incapable of forming an invalid opinion becayse we didn't like that opinion is simply appalling.

Apart from anything else if she is autistic you need to be modelling tact for her.

Making people cry because they don’t agree with you is nearly always unnecessary. Especially if you are an adult and they are a child.

I am autistic and although I communicate badly online, in real life I have spent a long time learning how to not hammer a point home, how to be tactful, how to be respectful of others opinions. It’s so important.

Well I agree with rhe daughter,

Why don't you bring me in op? Make it a bit of a fair fight? I'll take the discussion with you, and you won't make me cry.

Wanna play?

Bluntness, your comments are bizarre and unnecessarily aggressive. The op didn't say she made her daughter cry. There is absolutely no hint of bullying here, you're projecting massively.

Have you never cried in confusion or frustration at something, or when you're just trying to convince someone and they don't play ball? Or just in manipulation? God knows as an autistic teenage girl I did.

Just because someone cries, it doesn't instantly mean the person talking to them is a bully. It also doesn't mean that that person should promptly beg forgiveness and agree on everything either.

No, I tend not to cry in conversations where the other person is listening to me and hearing me and we are exchanging views pleasantly.

I guess we find each other bizzare.

Absolutely. If you're not used to dealing with autistic people (and I'm one, married to one, related to others, member of groups online and in person) then maybe you don't spot this behaviour often or in yourself.

If I wanted to be a social justice warrior about it like you, I could say it's disablist of you to call it "weird".

Meanwhile don't arrogantly tell some Mum she's being a bully and say you'd like to fight her, when you have no evidence of wrongdoing.

Hang on, I used fight as in argument, and I stated it was offensive to say this girls views were due to autism. In addition the mother never said she was diagnosed as autistic, she said she had some autistic traits.

Please read the comments again to get a better understanding of what's being said, as it's offensive to misread and then accuse people of doing ornsaying things erroneously.

“Don't forget the campaign to fuck up the vote on choice in Ireland because those naughty Irish feminists refused to be sufficiently hateful to trans people.“

source?

My daughter is on the autistic spectrum. All her life when she has felt strongly about something, especially when she's talking to one of her parents, she has started to cry, involuntarily. She hates it. When she was little she used to say vehemently 'I'm not crying!' as the tears poured down her face. It's because of the surge of emotion which she doesn't understand and can't control, I suppose. It's not because she's being bullied.

Good luck, OP. What a confusing world we live in now for young people.

I agree with your post at 14:48 opla

Dd did not cry because I bullied her to tears. Throughout our discussion we both spoke calmly and respectfully to each other. Even when dd had had enough she stopped the conversation in a quiet and sensible manner.

She cried, I think, because she was struggling to reconcile very different, very intense, opinions and feelings within herself.

Nothing wrong with pointing out the rigidity of thought that is often part of autisim. You have no idea what my background is, nor what experience I have with ASD.

I like the idea of inviting her to come with me to a women's meeting - just have to find the right one. I took her to Pride, so perhaps it could be a sort of quid pro quo!

I think she's lucky to have you in her life to guide her. I was a huge social justice warrior and over the years it has felt like womanhood is being erased and there is no longer a space for woman to be together without being accused of being a bigot. Biology is not offensive. I have heard people say some woman have penises. No, they don't. I've also had my infertility compared to a trans woman who can't carry a child. This bothers me a lot. The trans movement has become very dismissive of women's issues.

Irish feminists in general tend to have lless of a problem with trans people. I can't find the link at the moment but there was definitely some stuff on Twitter from anti-trans feminists saying they couldn't support the fight for abortion rights any more because Irish feminists were 'throwing women under the bus' by supporting trans people. Though I accept there is a possibility that the accounts tweeting that were about as genuine as the accounts tweeting about rqzor blades under stickers: it's often very difficult to tell whether any line of particularly exaggerated and spiteful argument is a geunine belief or someone stirring the pot further.

there was a case of the religious marriage registrar, she had a strong Christian faith and she honestly believed that marriage could only be between men and women
Sorry to digress but this argument was always bullshit. If that registrar was a committed Christian she wouldn't marry divorced people. Or anyone really, considering marriage is a sacrament and civil marriage is godless. So she didn't really have a leg to stand on. She chose to present herself as religious to defend her homophobia, but she was doing a secular job in a secular way so it didn't make sense.

She cried, I think, because she was struggling to reconcile very different, very intense, opinions and feelings within herself
Good luck in any case, JellySlice. It's not an easy thing to talk about and it's not easy as a young person to reconcile what you believe is right with the views of your parents.

Also worth reading: this was doing the rounds on Facebook a while ago. I don't know the author but have C&Pd the post for those of you without FB accounts.
"Some people I’ve spoken to have suggested that the "Get the L Out" protesters who tried to halt the Pride March in London last week were motivated by real concerns about the safety and wellbeing of women and children - and that by condemning their actions, we’re dismissing their concerns. The safety and wellbeing of women and children are very important to me, so I’ve tried to address the concerns as I understand them, and I’ve suggested some alternative actions.

1. If you are concerned that young people are feeling pressured to identify as trans, there are lots of things you can do to help which don’t involve lying down in front of the Pride March. For example, you could support the identities and self-esteem of young lesbians, gay men, tomboys, camp lads and other kids who don’t fit the gender mould. Let gender non-conforming kids know they are perfect as they are. And if you are a butch woman or a camp guy, be proud. Believe that we are beautiful. Accept support when you need it. Likewise compliments.

1. Some people have voiced concerns that transwomen may access women-only spaces in order to harass and violate us. If you are concerned that transwomen may predate on you in a women-only space, it might be reassuring to know that attacks by trans women against women are incredibly rare. If you are still concerned, it might help to be clear with yourself and with young people about what constitutes inappropriate behaviour – for example, aggression, harassment, verbal or physical violence. If someone is doing this stuff in a women-only space, it’s okay to act. Telling security or calling the police is generally more effective than handing out leaflets attacking trans people.

1. If, like the demonstrators at Pride, you are concerned that trans-activism is erasing lesbianism, it might help to hang out with some lesbians. For example, at an LGBT Pride march.

1. If you are concerned that young people are feeling pressured to take hormones or undergo major surgery they may later regret, it might help to listen to trans people about how and why they made the complex decision to undergo medical procedures. If you still feel concerned, you could try supporting organisations which help young trans people, and showing your support for non-binary, trans and intersex young people. Letting them know they are beautiful as they are, with or without surgery, is likely to be more effective than shouting slogans. It might also really help young transwomen to accept and love their bodies if you don't shame, mock, criticise, undermine or call them "men" because their bodies don't fit your expectation of what it is to be a woman.

1. Some people are concerned that young lesbians are being pressured to have sex with transwomen. If you are not a young lesbian, it might help to speak to some young lesbians to check this out. If you are still concerned, you can do lots to help. For example, bring up your kids to respect other people and themselves. Help them to develop the self-esteem and confidence they need to draw their own boundaries. Work with them to understand consent, and ownership of their own bodies. Similarly, if you don’t want to sleep with someone, don’t sleep with them. If they overstep your boundaries, let them know. If they don’t listen, take appropriate action. This is more generally effective than lying down in front of a Pride March.

1. If you are concerned that trans people are leading to the closure of women-only spaces, it might help to visit some women-only spaces and experience how safe, thriving, diverse and lovely they can be. Maybe you could speak to the people who run them about what challenges they are facing, and how you can help. Halifax Women’s Centre, for example, is asking for donations and for volunteers to offer mentoring, counselling and admin support, rather than for women to lie down in front of a Pride March.

1. If you are concerned that trans-women are destroying feminism, it might help to get involved in one of the many organisations which work in creative and active ways to end violence against women, decrease the pay gap, support women refugees and asylum seekers, or promote the self-esteem of young women, for example. This is more likely to help achieve good things like reducing violence against women, raising girls’ self-esteem and decreasing the pay gap, for example, than handing out anti-trans leaflets.

1. If you are worried that trans people are reinforcing an oppressive gender binary which has a negative impact on women and girls, it might be helpful to hang out with some trans people. This will give you the opportunity to chat about how they navigate an absurdly complex set of gender rules, to witness the diversity of ways in which they manage this, and to reflect on how you manage this yourself. It might also help to remind yourself that the oppressive gender binary is most probably maintained by the 99.5% of the population which is not trans, and which has the weight of social norms and global capitalism behind it. These may be more relevant targets than trans people and Pride Marches.

1. If you are concerned by the aggressive tactics used by some trans activists, it may help to remind yourself that they do not represent all trans people, just as terrorists do not represent Muslim people. Maybe you could hang out with some trans people and find out that most people are just trying to get on with their lives and make positive and loving connections with the rest of their communities. If you are still concerned about tactics that leave people feeling upset, intimidated, invalidated and excluded, you might like to avoid engaging in tactics that leave people feeling upset, intimidated, invalidated and excluded.

10. If you are concerned that trans people are distracting feminists from the real issues, for example, massive structural inequalities and violence against women across the world, then it might be helpful to avoid making trans people the problem. And focus on the real issues.

We’re most of us very good people. And love probably is the answer. And it’s almost definitely going to be okay."

Wow, what a condescending, victim-blaming pile of shite.

If you are concerned that trans people are leading to the closure of women-only spaces, it might help to visit some women-only spaces and experience how safe, thriving, diverse and lovely they can be.

Er...most of us on here are women and are regularly in "women-only spaces". They're only fucking safe because they don't let men into them.

Wow, what a condescending, victim-blaming pile of shite.

Quite possibly the most accurate tl;dr I’ve ever read.

Translation:

And if you are a butch woman or a camp guy, be proud.
Hereby bestowing the seal of approval
Telling security or calling the police
When seconds count, the police are minutes away (I think that might have been the US NRA so apologies but they were right there). Also: you have the right to complain once an assault has happened! We've given you permission!
If, like the demonstrators at Pride, you are concerned that trans-activism is erasing lesbianism, it might help to hang out with some lesbians. Good luck finding a lesbian bar, venue or group. We tried but they keep closing down as we join
Letting them know they are beautiful as they are
Agreed
don't shame, mock, criticise, undermine
Going to accuse you of it even if it doesn't happen
or call them "men"
Muh feelz
If you are not a young lesbian
If you're an old lesbian or a middle aged one you don't have to worry about AGP men finding you attractive
If they overstep your boundaries, let them know. If they don’t listen, take appropriate action
But not these boundaries, and obviously not this action, because you are all a bit mean.
it might help to visit some women-only spaces
While they still exist. Also, if you haven't personally volunteered in the last week, you are less of a woman than Kandy-Rae and Mandee-Fae over there in the size eleven heels, because they show up all the time. Put more effort in, bleeders!
it might help to get involved
More effort, bleeders! We won't listen on this until you've fixed every other thing first. Otherwise how can you even call yourself a woman?
they navigate an absurdly complex set of gender rules
That we insist on adding to. We're emulating tax lawyers. The longer and more complicated it is, the more you need us to interpret it for you.
If you are still concerned about tactics that leave people feeling upset, intimidated, invalidated and excluded, you might like to avoid engaging in tactics that leave people feeling upset, intimidated, invalidated and excluded.
I know you are but what am I?
focus on the real issues
OMG why are we even talking about this when we're all gonna die from climate change anyway. Only Really Important Stuff that I agree is Really Important is worthy of discussion. This isn't it. Put more effort in, bleeders! Oh, and would it kill you to put on a smear of lipstick?

I didn’t really understand point 3. The demonstrators were lesbians. Surely we can assume they ‘hang out’ with themselves.

The rest of it seemed to be along the lines of I’m allowed to knock your house down as long as I leave you the shed, don’t complain, some people don’t even have a shed.

Nah I’ll keep my house ta all the same. Feck off.