Girlguiding expels leaders who question trans policy

[AgnesBadenPowell]

Well, I guess I knew this was coming. Dissent will not be tolerated. Forget the safety concerns, the privacy and dignity issues, the managing out of gender non-confirming girls. What's really serious is one leader referring to another leader "a nightmare" in a private conversation.

Girl Guide leaders expelled for questioning trans policy

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/34139ed0-bea5-11e8-8d21-451ec1df6b83

Two Guide leaders who had raised safeguarding concerns about the organisation’s transgender policy have been expelled and had their units closed down.

Dozens of children face disappointment because there is no one else to run the units. The expelled leaders say they will take legal action against Girlguiding if their removals are upheld.

Helen Watts, one of 12 leaders who signed a letter to The Sunday Times in April asking for a review of the policy, was told on Friday that her membership was being terminated after more than 15 years with the Guides.

At least one other signatory, based in the northwest of England, was expelled. Documents seen by The Sunday Times suggest disciplinary investigations have been launched against at least five Guide leaders.

[Edited by MNHQ to remove copyright materiel]

That's massive if GG can no longer advertise themselves as for girls. That's their USP and if they have to say they are mixed sex, then they have to let all boys in.

They really have fucked this up!

Well soon find out if wiki is run by TRAs and their man pleasers. If they lock the page down when the nonsense and misogynistic term gender is used, that’ll be our answer.

I’ve donated to wiki every year since, well. I don’t know, at least 15 of them, I reckon.

Won’t be doing that anymore.

Yes. If they lose their USP then there is a strong possibility that they will lose everything.

Families of girls who want or need single sex will have nowhere to go.

Families of girls who are pissed off with GG behaviour over this will go to Scouts.

Boys will continue to favour Scouts over Guides even if they now have the opportunity to attend Guides.

It all amounts to a difficulty in retaining numbers.

Presumably a man (who knows that he is a man) can apply for a position as a GG leader.

When GG turn him down, he'll be able to sue for discrimination, I'm guessing? Because GG allow some men (those who claim a female identity) to be leaders but not others.

Be interesting if someone like Miranda Yardley would apply to be a leader? Miranda is a transsexual and says that he is a man. So Miranda is a transgender male (so in theory should be allowed to be a leader), but crucially knows that he is male which would presumably bar him from joining. Bizarre that an acknowledgement of material reality is the thing that denies you entry to the GG. Whereas the fantasists get waved straight through.

Be really interesting if someone like Miranda applied as a man and got turned down. And then re-applied a week later as a woman. Could be an interesting test case for legal action.

GG can't complain. They have brought this on themselves.

Fantastic that ECHR have insisted that single sex means single sex regardless of self identification! It's as if 'sex' actually means something in law!

Now let's get that in writing please about hospital wards, toilets, changing rooms, refuges and right to same SEX hcps. Or make the government be honest with the electorate that they are making the whole of the UK mixed sex, and let's watch them handle the similar reality check GG have just experienced. The general public will not swallow this. They won't.

Popchyk Excellent point about the wonderful Miranda Yardley.

I just walked past GG head office. Shame I didn't have any stickers.

DS is around there. I might ask him and his mates to drop in to ask where they can join. He's 14.

DS is around there. I might ask him and his mates to drop in to ask where they can join. He's 14.

Is GG allowed to discriminate against them based on their gender now? Before EHRC notified them to change to mixed sex officially, they were certain they could (managing out GNC girls), but now, did things change?

Now let's get that in writing please about hospital wards, toilets, changing rooms, refuges and right to same SEX hcps. Or make the government be honest with the electorate that they are making the whole of the UK mixed sex, and let's watch them handle the similar reality check GG have just experienced. The general public will not swallow this. They won't

If you check your local NHS Trust's same sex ward policy and transgender policy, you wil likely see that they have already been made mixed sex.

I think EndofDiscOne made an interesting point (back on pg 19)

Ive been trying to ignore that this particular issue is around transgender issues and look at it from a safeguarding perspective. All the training i have ever received has focused on exerting professional curiosity, raising concerns and continuing to speak out if we feel these concerns are not being taken seriously.

If you consider some of the high profile serious case reviews of recent times time and time again people knowing things and not communicating them, people not taking concerns seriously and people being afraid to challenge have contributed to failings. Admittedly these arent the only reasons by a long way but poor communication is always flagged as a factor.

We dont always get safeguarding right in this country despite all the current measures we have. And that includes all the whistle blowing policies in public services. And what troubles me is the message GG are sending out by this stance. It goes against all those key principles of encouraging people to challenge amd listening to concerns. The message i see is don't raise concerns and keep quiet or we will dismiss - both for the young people and the volunteers.

To me this is entirely the wrong message any organisation should be sending

RO can you confirm what to look for please? - has the guidance re single wards been changed to mixed sex? Or is it that the guidance says that people must be placed on the ward of the gender they identify with? (Which would be called a mixed gender ward, the line GG tried to use)

If it's mixed sex in actuality but denied and called mixed gender (only men identifying as women on women's wards) then the ECHR will help as it's calling the bluff on this with GG and saying single gender MEANS mixed sex and that has to be honestly acknowledged.

Sorry, SINGLE gender ward. This stuff is so convoluted and mired down in language it's hard to get straight!

twitter.com/Girlguiding/status/1039144455801069568

Just wanted to pop this tweet on here in case anyone with more followers than me wants to retweet it.

It's a bit like the Planet Fitness lawsuit in the US. I'd have to read up on it again but I think that is hinging on PF being deliberately misleading to their customers by not making clear that changing spaces are mixed sex ergo you should informed to expect the possibility of encountering a penis in the womens changing facilities.

SecondRow They are just taking the piss now.

PositivelyPERF I can't bring myself to call my friend's daughter he, or by the male name, so I don't use their name anymore and just avoid ever having to reference. I'm a very open minded person, very liberal politically, and am so worried about this young girl. She fits all the criteria for adolescents who self identify when there are actually a lot of other issues going on. I feel like it's collusion too, and I just can't do it.

Her mum is terrified of not doing the right thing. She said to me I should look at the Mermaids website as it was so good. She is also taking her to a support group, which I now know is run by Allsorts. It's like she's on the unstoppable train to transition. If I introduce any element of question or doubt I stand to risk losing a lot of very close friendships.

Knicknackpaddyflak

The two policies need to be read together.

The same sex ward policy will assert the reasons for this eg safety dignity and privacy.

The transgender policy will then provide specific guidance about patients gender identity.

Some hospital trusts will have their policies online which may indicate when the same sex ward policy was ammended and by whom etc

Until they agree that a male bodied person is, well a boy/man then words are meaningless. Girl/woman - if that is stretched to mean any living creature who believes it is female then where will we be?

What if Coco had announced that she was a human female - would she be allowed to join up too?

Girlguiding now answers on Twitter to any request on whether they were adviced by Jane Fae or Aimee Challenor or... first: that they were not adviced by individuals but organizations and now: that they were not adviced by any on these individuals.

Wonder what they will answer now that the question has appeared, whether they took advice from organizations where said individuals were on the advisory board.

DuckingGoodPJs: not carry on as normal and hope it won't affect you or your daughters directly (which seems the stance you are taking).

If you’d read my posts I already said I was going to do more and had already raised issues.

However, my priority is my children – taking them out of guides and brownies takes something important away from them something I’m loathed to do (though it could come to it but more likely they'll age out of current groups).

I think most parents are similar so I don’t think they’ll be dramatic 80% walk outs – but careful thought though decisions and risk assessments.

We, DH and I, are increasingly speaking out and doing protesting as we've become more aware despite the huge potentail issues with our work sectors. I'm bloody grateful to Helen and other leaders letting us know there even was an issue.

One of the big TRAs is a wiki editor. Or was - keeps getting banned apparently.

Can't remember who though off the top of my head.

Well Julie you are a bloody silly woman and will go down as the worst CEO the Guides have ever had.

Thanks RO

My local hospital is clear in their online info that separate sex (specifically using the word sex) toilets and wards will be provided, with the sole exception of the ICU and some other emergency care resources. No mention of gender anywhere. Their inclusion policies only reference their LGBT staff, nothing regarding patients that I can find.

Thank you, this stuff needs chasing down and bringing into the sunlight.

Knicknackpaddyflak see what their Transgender Policy is. They will have one. Both need to be considered together.