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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

336 replies

BertrandRussell · 22/09/2018 01:03

...explain to me the intellectual process that got you there? I promise -and as far as I can I promise on behalf of other people - not to challenge or argue and only ask clarification questuons. I just want to understand, even if I don't agree.

OP posts:
QuinnMovesOn · 07/07/2021 18:25

I can accept that gender dysphoria is real and people with that psychological issue deserve sympathy and respect.

I also think natal women have rights, too.

dyslek · 07/07/2021 19:54

I think they do genuinly 'believe' it, but, its like there are different kinds of belief for different things iykwim.
Basically they believe it because they really want to beleive it, I guess.

If you really really want to believe something you will find any 'fact' or theory, however abstract or nonesenseicle, and and use that as a shield against reality.
Everyone has done it at some point in their lives, be it religion or desperatly believing a partner loves you despite all evidence. If you desperat enough you keep reality just enough out of your concious mind.

dyslek · 07/07/2021 20:16

@RatRolyPoly Im sorry but you just seem to be mangling vague interpretations of postmodern theory in to meaningless nonesense in the persuit of mens sex rights.

dyslek · 07/07/2021 20:18

@QuinnMovesOn

I can accept that gender dysphoria is real and people with that psychological issue deserve sympathy and respect.

I also think natal women have rights, too.

Most women have body dysphoria, its a constant of the female experiance. That does not mean women get to define reality.

Its almost like there is a fundamental difference between women and transwomen.

KoalaPig83 · 07/07/2021 21:48

Most women have body dysmorphia a totally different thing to gender dysphoria.

Nobody is redefining/defying/denying reality. It is a reality that gender and sex are two separate entities. One can choose not to believe that reality, much like one can choose not to believe the earth is not an oblate spheroid.

KoalaPig83 · 07/07/2021 21:53

Natal or cis women do have rights. Do you mean rights specifically in relation to trans/cis issues, i.e. sex-based rights?

MrsJuliaGulia · 07/07/2021 22:07

I’d like to know, and I am not sure if this is the right thread for it, but if as a white women, I suddenly decide to identify as a black women, why that is any different than a man identifying as a woman or vice versa.
If a women is “a feeling” rather than biological fact, then why is colour not also a feeling?

dyslek · 07/07/2021 22:15

Because identifying in to an oppressed racial class is appropriation and offensively racist but identifying in to the oppressed class of woman is stunning and progressive. Denying this obvious reality is the same as denying the earth is round.

dyslek · 07/07/2021 22:17

@KoalaPig83

Natal or cis women do have rights. Do you mean rights specifically in relation to trans/cis issues, i.e. sex-based rights?
Not having the right to bodly autonomy means you are not fully considered human. Being forced to accept unwanted men in your life, bedroom and body means you dont have bodily autonomy. But Im sure you know this.
thinkingaboutLangCleg · 07/07/2021 22:20

you have to acknowledge that "woman" in everyday life is not used to describe those with the confirmed characteristic of being of the female sex. It just isn't.

But Rat, it just is. Outside a tiny group, and those who have to pretend to believe them, out in the real world, it is.

dyslek · 07/07/2021 22:24

And Rat does not get to redefine language at his will.

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 07/07/2021 22:27

I doubt rat is reading a thread thats over 2 and a half years old

I mean theres being invested…but two years is going some

KoalaPig83 · 07/07/2021 22:55

Ah yes, we do lack many rights, you're correct. I was actually going to make sarcastic about how we have rights, nothing as extreme as equal pay or other such dizzying expectations, but rights none the less.

I didn't make the joke coz I wasn't 100% sure what you meant and didn't want to muddy things further by adding written sarcasm.

I agree women's rights need to come on much more. For me, that includes trans women too, but I know not everyone agrees.🙂

dyslek · 07/07/2021 22:57

Men already have all the rights they need.

Datun · 07/07/2021 23:12

@RufustheBadgeringReindeer

I doubt rat is reading a thread thats over 2 and a half years old

I mean theres being invested…but two years is going some

I wouldn't rule it out 😄
EyesOpening · 08/07/2021 01:12

@PrawnofthePatriarchy

Zombie thread!
I'm glad it was resurrected though, there was a very interesting thread (badly) linked on the first page, which I've not seen before.
NiceGerbil · 08/07/2021 02:17

I haven't read the whole thread and was going to get stuck in but zombie thread!

Since this was written.

Rats views have prevailed.

Woman/ girl are social roles and always have been (!)

You can only tell what sex someone is by looking in their pants (!!!)

The definition of female is inadequate. Sex is more complicated than that (!!!)

This has gained traction now.

Female penis.
Rapists in women's prisons.
Anyone can go into any single sex space they fancy (but for female people to go to men's stuff is not generally desirable and men have no problem saying sod off and they are bigger and stronger so... It's a one way street. Etc etc).

Old thread.

Rat you won! Well done :)

(For now)

RufustheBadgeringReindeer · 08/07/2021 09:02

I wouldn't rule it out

Fair point

I did think that as i was typing it and then I thought…..naaaaah surely not

50greyshades · 05/10/2021 20:37

Money is a lie that everyone agrees to therefore since you don't like lies you're happy to give away all of your money?

Piapiano · 05/10/2021 20:50

@Babdoc

I can’t help feeling that the TRAs have rather shot themselves in the foot with this TWAW nonsense. If they had simply gone with the truth - that they’re men who are deeply unhappy with the male gender stereotype forced on them by our patriarchial society, and who wish to present as a female gender stereotype instead, they could have quite happily gone around in their dresses and heels, been accepted as effeminate men, used male facilities etc. No problem. But to try and insist that they’re actually, biological women, in the face of all the factual evidence to the contrary, to try and force their way into women’s private spaces, to compromise women’s safety and dignity, to hold the door open for a raft of rapists, voyeurs and paedophiles to follow them in - that is bound to cause anger and refusal from any sane woman.
I 100% agree with this.
Piapiano · 05/10/2021 20:54

Oh I didn't see it was a zombie thread. Still interesting though!

50greyshades · 05/10/2021 21:06

I don't know what world you're living in but cisgender women can be rapists, voyeurs and paedophiles.

334bu · 05/10/2021 21:16

I don't know what world you're living in but cisgender women can be rapists, voyeurs and paedophiles.
In a world where 98%of sex offenders are of the male sex and transwomen are just as likely to be sex offenders as any other males.

Piapiano · 05/10/2021 21:25

In the UK rape means penetration with a penis. Women cannot rape.

foxgoosefinch · 05/10/2021 21:36

@RatRolyPoly

Hang on, I'll try and give you something to work with.

Room full of people, I pick out all the women. Truth is I don't know what's in their pants or what chromosomes they have, you might say I do because someone's dog always barks at their brothers or some such, but the bare truth is that I don't.

Same room of people, I ask people to tell me whether or not they're a woman. Those declaring themselves women may or may not be the same people I thought were women, and whilst they certainly know better than I do what's in their pants, we're not going to be asking them to prove it any time soon.

So which of them are women? The ones I've identified who also identify themselves as women, they're the easy ones, right? Because as long as we're not checking (and in almost every situation where the word is used, we don't) then that is all we have to go on. Because whilst woman may usually refer to an adult human female, what we actually use it to mean is those we both TAKE to be adult human females, and who also confirm that they ARE adult human females. Regardless of their chromosomes. THAT is what the word means. It is a person who both takes themselves to be and is taken by others to be a woman.

You can be frustrated if you think that's circular, or fluffy, or whatever you like, but you have to acknowledge that "woman" in everyday life is not used to describe those with the confirmed characteristic of being of the female sex. It just isn't. And a word's definition should describe how it is ACTUALLY USED by people, not dictate how it should be. A dictionary won't go into this much detail because that is not the purpose of the dictionary, but the way we actually use the word of course takes precedence.

Now what of those people who either I identify as women but who don't themselves, or indeed the other way round? Given that no proof is being asked for or offered, traditionally the self-declaration of the individual is given more precedence as they at least know what's in their pants. And actually were it a situation where it really mattered what their biology was there would usually be a burden of proof. In everyday situations there is not.

But what if I still disagree that they're a woman? Well, the bottom line is they can be a woman in their eyes and not in mine. Particularly if within society as a whole I am in the minority thinking they're not a woman. Because then to most people they satisfy the criteria of both identifying themselves and being identified by others as a woman. Frankly, as long as it is a situation where no proof is required, a woman is someone who both declares they are one and who society accepts as one, regardless of the assertion of any other individual.

Hope that helps! Got a sporting event to get ready for now but maybe back in the evening :)

Well this is a load of old waffle that doesn’t answer the actual question.

You talk here about whether you disagree that someone is a woman - so you’re acknowledging that a woman is something you think someone can either be or not. Undoes your whole argument to be honest.

The question is not “should we act as if “woman” is partly a social category”. The question is “if you believe TWAW, by virtue of what do you believe this?”

Your post above doesn’t actually answer the OP’s question at all.

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