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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

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Original poster

Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

336 replies

BertrandRussell · 22/09/2018 01:03

...explain to me the intellectual process that got you there? I promise -and as far as I can I promise on behalf of other people - not to challenge or argue and only ask clarification questuons. I just want to understand, even if I don't agree.

OP posts:

MsBeaujangles · 22/09/2018 13:53

Teddy

In the past there has been a lot of support on this board for third spaces. I expect there still is, however, third spaces are often shouted down by people claiming to advocate for trans rights. They claim that this it 'othering' and excluding trans people from the facilities they feel comfortable in.

Many posters have given up trying to make a case for third spaces, instead deciding to focus on protecting sex based spaces. Others feel that this is not the board for discussing trans rights as it is board designated to women and girls and there are plenty of other places where these can be discussed and by discuss them we are directing attention away from women and girls.

BrownPaperTeddy · 22/09/2018 13:54

Is my 8yo supposed to do that by herself, though?
No I am talking about me. Only me.

If I saw what looks like a man in a female toilet how can I challenge him if a someone who looks like a man is allowed in there because he was born a woman?

That's only me that I am talking about. And I am disabled for the record.

The born as argument doesn't work when you include trans men into it. It only works when you focus on trans women and I can't see any rules being brought in that only deal with trans women.

I agree with separate cubicles or with 3rd spaces but then clearly lots don't. The answer is never going to be that a trans woman uses the men's facilities.

littlbrowndog · 22/09/2018 13:55

It don’t matter what we do
More will still be demanded from us
The word women has been erased all on the say so of men

Molokonono · 22/09/2018 13:57

The answer is never going to be that a trans woman uses the men's facilities.

Why not?

There is a chap called Hope who dresses in female clothes, uses the men's and there is never a problem.

If there is a problem, it is up to men to sort out. Not women.

If there is an attack, then call the police and report it.

Women and girls should not be used as shields to protect men from other men.

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 13:59

The answer is never going to be that a trans woman uses the men's facilities.

I don't agree with that statement either. Who says? I think it's more reasonable for them to use the men's than the women's personally if it comes down to that. You make a lot of assumptions.

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 13:59

Women and girls should not be used as shields to protect men from other men.

THIS.

BrownPaperTeddy · 22/09/2018 14:00

@MsBeaujangles

Thank you for explaining that.

I'm glad I joined in here today because things are becoming clearer.

It's important to be able to ask questions and get things explained and clarified without being shouted down or insulted.

I don't agree with women's spaces being eroded or taken over. Equally I don't agree with trans people being pushed out of society either. I hope that a way can be found that does both.

Molokonono · 22/09/2018 14:00

Men's toilets - they all have urinals and single person cubicles.

A natural 'gender neutral' toilet.

Sorted.

OldCrone · 22/09/2018 14:01

My comment about the unintended consequences is that I'm assuming the notion of self ID came from a good place. That it was intended to help trans gender people to live their life as a person of their chosen sex.

The unintended consequence, as I see it, is that this deregulation then allows for any pervert to walk into a female changing room with the sole intention of looking at women and girls, or raping them, or exposing themselves.

Just catching up with this thread, so someone might have already said this, but the number of genuine, dysphoric trans people is tiny - the 5000 who currently have a GRC is about it. The number of perverts who might take advantage of this is huge.

When the number of people who are likely to abuse a law is so much greater than the number of people it is likely to help, then is it a good law? Especially considering that genuinely dysphoric trans people can already get a GRC under the current law.

I still don't see who the change in the law is going to help. Dysphoric people can already get a GRC. Nobody else needs one. Perverts will abuse self ID.

MsBeaujangles · 22/09/2018 14:02

When people say TWAW, what they are really saying is "females are not allowed to be recognised as themselves, distinct from males, on their own terms, ever'

This is the rub and I think can be distinguishing feature of trans allies. I think there are many trans allies that do recognise the need to be able to categorise by sex. I think there are others (some of whom are using 'trans rights' as a vehicle for eroding sex based rights) who want to wipe out all female based rights/ further oppression of females.

I expect the former are the majority and the forceful minority mange to create diversions when sensible thoughtful discussions could take place

BettyDuMonde · 22/09/2018 14:03

Hey Teddy

I will join you in the campaign for third spaces, but only after single sex spaces are being enshrined in law. There are only so many hours in the day so I am prioritising woman and children and once that’s ticked off the list, more third spaces (and increased tolerance for GNC people in the facility of their birth sex) will move up a spot.

Hopefully we’ll get the women and children bit sorted in our lifetimes, huh?

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 14:03

If I saw what looks like a man in a female toilet how can I challenge him if a someone who looks like a man is allowed in there because he was born a woman?

Because some people are quite obviously men. The trans people who are indistinguishable can obviously go "stealth". We can't stop them. Therefore they are likely to go in the opposite sex toilet and be discreet. It's not great but short of chromosome detectors as you seem to think we are advocating for, that's just how it is.

BrownPaperTeddy · 22/09/2018 14:03

I think it's more reasonable for them to use the men's than the women's personally if it comes down to that. You make a lot of assumptions.

Not saying they should use the womens.

But if you make trans women use the mens then by default you allow trans men to use the womens - and I'm not happy with that and I don't think a lot of women would be happy with a person that looks like a man using their facilities, regardless of whether they were born male or female.

I can support arguments for a third space.

You must support whatever argument you agree with.

ShotsFired · 22/09/2018 14:04

MrsBeau - I feel like the two groups came to the discussion with two polar opposite viewpoints:

Women: No men whatsoever
TW: All men, #NoDebate

After a while, it got chewed over, and we returned and said
Women: We suggest third spaces and we'll support you in the fight for that.
TW: All men, #NoDebate

Bit later on:
Women: So these third spaces, how do you want to set up the cause? We're still willing to support you.
TW: All men, #NoDebate

Later on still:
Women: Well you can have your third spaces, but I'm cooling on the idea of supporting you as you won't listen or do anything
TW: All men, #NoDebate

Now:
Women: Well quite frankly you can all piss off. We offered a solution, we offered to help you fight for that solution, but now we see you have no compromisable bones in your body, so we too now have hardened our position back to: No men, whatsoever
TW: All men, #NoDebate

(All the while the TW faction involved were twisting and contorting the facts to appear the victim in public, while women were distracted trying to find solutions.)

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 14:05

Dysphoric people can already get a GRC. Nobody else needs one

This. Let's stop trying to make it easier to change people's legal sex class, something that IMO shouldn't happen anyway.

Molokonono · 22/09/2018 14:07

Are men around the world worried about trans men coming into their toilets?

If not, why not?

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 14:09

I don't think a lot of women would be happy with a person that looks like a man using their facilities, regardless of whether they were born male or female.

And a lot of women aren't happy with actual men using their facilities.

You say you would challenge a man. But you also say it's so terribly difficult to distinguish between a man and a woman, so how would you justify challenging anyone?

As people have said, this is a disingenuous argument.

BrownPaperTeddy · 22/09/2018 14:09

This. Let's stop trying to make it easier to change people's legal sex class, something that IMO shouldn't happen anyway.
What does that mean though? That even if a person got a GRC you wouldn't recognise it anyway?

HandsOffMyRights · 22/09/2018 14:09

Spot on Barracker.

My mother's in her 70s and I'm watching her health.
I'm curious as to how my elderly mother on a hospital ward or care home would be afforded her privacy and dignity if a man (let's say a cross dresser like Pips) identifies as a woman and is able to provide intimate care.

Or how she might cope on the ward (and she's tiny, she might have early stages of dementia) sharing the bed next to a 6ft 4 guy who says he's female. He's been socialised on a diet of porn and abuse.

How do vulnerable people speak out?

FermatsTheorem · 22/09/2018 14:11

Shots - exactly.

And now we have a government consultation which women are putting a lot of time into, but which is clearly framed as #pretenddebate.

So it will go
Women: in answer to your questions, no men in women's spaces, no self ID.
TW/government All Men #nodebate (yes, we were only kidding when we said #pretenddebate - fooled you)

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 14:12

What does that mean though? That even if a person got a GRC you wouldn't recognise it anyway?

That in an ideal world the GRA would be repealed. No more GRCs. A new legal framework would be worked out. It would have to be decided what happened with current GRC holders. Probably we'd have to maintain the legal fiction for this tiny group but we'd need to dispense with the idea that they are entitled to absolute privacy. Because you can't change sex. It's a nonsense.

BrownPaperTeddy · 22/09/2018 14:13

You say you would challenge a man. But you also say it's so terribly difficult to distinguish between a man and a woman, so how would you justify challenging anyone?
I'm not saying it's terribly difficult to distinguish between a man and a woman.

What I am saying is who are you going to allow to use a womens toilet?

If you say "simple. It's anyone born female" then I am saying that includes trans men, who look like a man, who I don't feel comfortable sharing a toilet or a communal changing room with. But thanks to your rules I have no choice because you have declared that they are female.

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 14:14

But thanks to your rules I have no choice because you have declared that they are female.

THEY ARE FEMALE. It's not my rules.

Ereshkigal · 22/09/2018 14:15

then I am saying that includes trans men, who look like a man,

Very occasionally.

BrownPaperTeddy · 22/09/2018 14:15

@Ereshkigal

So are you asking that being trans is banned?

Gender dysphoria is what? Made illegal? Medicated out of existence?

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