Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

[BertrandRussell]

...explain to me the intellectual process that got you there? I promise -and as far as I can I promise on behalf of other people - not to challenge or argue and only ask clarification questuons. I just want to understand, even if I don't agree.

Good question

I really want an answer too but I have a feeling that just like the other million times this has been asked that we aren't going to get one.

They believe woman is a social construct, and people should be free to choose what social construct they follow. But they also believe woman is a feeling that sets in during foetal development.

I want to know what is that they have in common with women that makes them women instead of men?

Because even though we come in different shapes, sizes, colours and abilities we all have certain things in common such as chromosomes and reproductive system (even if certain parts of the system don’t work or have been removed).

Do you think that anybody really thinks transwomen are women?

I have always seen it as a way of saying 'I'm happy to pretend and you should too'

My response to the question do you think TWAW is 'no and nor do you', because the people asking it then have to question their lazy assumption of being in the right

Nobody genuinely thinks it surely

Do you think that anybody really thinks transwomen are women*

Good question. You would think not. Especially women who describe themselves as feminists.

I was surprised to see feminists on here supporting self-id. Their reason is that they (the feminists) support ALL women.

I'm paraphrasing, but my chocolate digestive fell straight to the bottom of the cup when I read some of the comments.

Nobody really believes it, and nobody can justify it either. That's why the slogan is no debate.

I know I can't police thee thread, but I really want people to feel able to explain why they think what they think, so can we try not to say anything negative?

Hey Bert, can I help?

I also would like an answer. Clearly their idea of what a woman is is different to mine, so, from their perspective, what is a woman? How do you define the category so that it includes Caitlyn Jenner, your mum, and me, but excludes your dad and Jack Nicholson (not implying anything in particular there, was just trying to think of a male celebrity roughly Jenner's age who everyone agrees is male).

Handsoffmyrights exactly. My thread the other day highlighted this and was a response to a feminist colleague stating TWAW. I didn't see how you could be a feminist and believe that.

Oh gawd Peaked, that was your thread. I don't know how I would have handled that IRL without imploding.

You must have felt like reality had left the building.

Go on then Rat - explain why you believe TWAW.

Well, you’ll be waiting if you think you’re going to get the intellectual process behind the viewpoint.

The majority of people who say TWAW are trying to be kind and accepting and don’t see the harm in going along with something that could make a deeply unhappy person less unhappy.

They haven’t thought about the knock on implications. Or the unforeseen consequences (on their parts) such as a little baby, helpless and defenceless, and the person they rely upon most of all’s post-natal focus appears to be on bringing a test case to ensure that baby will never have a legal mother.

These are the people to reach

A sizeable minority will obediently and unthinkingly parrot any BS from the right woke source. Belief doesn’t come in to it.

A tiny minority use the statement as mind and thought control. As evidence of their dominance and ability to subjugate those who won’t mollify and endorse their absurdities. They are the very scary ones.

None believe.

"Hey Bert, can I help?"

Yes. Can you take me through the thinking that brought you to the point where you believe that transwomen are actually women? Not that they should be able to wear what they want, call themselves what they want and lead their lives peacefully, unharassed and protected by the laws that protect us all. Everyone-or everyone worth engaging with- thinks that. How did you get to the point of transwomen being actual women, not trans women?

Handsoffmyrights I have cut her out of my life is how I've handled it I don't actually work with her anymore but considered her a colleague as in she's the same profession as me and we talk shop regularly.

PeakedInThePeaks what was your other thread.

RatRolyPoly yes I am interested in your thoughts.

I do brlirbr some people do actually believe this. Some trans eomrm themselves, obviously, but others too.

slatestarcodex.com/2014/11/21/the-categories-were-made-for-man-not-man-for-the-categories/

^The majority of people who say TWAW are trying to be kind and accepting and don’t see the harm in going along with something that could make a deeply unhappy person less unhappy.

They haven’t thought about the knock on implications.^

I think is partly true. I know a lot of trans people in RL (masculine, feminine and non-binary) and have always been shocked by the struggles they’ve dealt with and happy to support self-ID if it helps them live a normal life. I suppose I see it as there being more than one definition of what a woman is - one relates to chromosomes and genitalia and another that relates to gender identity. And yes, of course gender identity is shaped by stereotypes and varies depending on the culture. I don’t believe there is one way to be female but I do believe as a culture we have some shared ideas about what ‘femaleness’ entails. It’s interesting to consider whether in a truly equal society trans people would still exist. Probably not but we don’t live in that world and trans people need to find a way of negotiating that.

As for the implications - I’m honestly not completely deaf to that. I’m hugely defensive because I’ve seen how badly some of my trans friends have been treated in the past and that means that the minute the debate becomes personal or nasty I switch off. But I do listen to the arguments when they’re made in a reasonable way without personal attacks and I do think there are some issues around self-ID we could do with discussing. I suspect that defensiveness is massively multiplied if you are trans and that’s why we’re not getting much debate. And of course non-trans women are also defensive considering the shit we’ve had to put up with (& still do) so anything perceived as a further threat to us is terrifying.

I’m not sure if that answers the question! But goes some way to explain my thinking process as I think I’m exactly the sort of person this thread is aimed at

Confusedwww.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370046-confused

^ my other thread where I asked if feminism and believing TWAW were compatible

Peaked - sounds like a healthy resolution. Still waiting for it to crop up at work

I was thinking something similar last night and almost started a thread asking: 'If we take away the biological truth of XX = female and XY = male (accepting that other X and Y combinations are also possible in very rare case) and the reproductive functions of the respective sexes, how is a transwoman, whether with or without any hormones or surgery, the same as me?' But that's a bit wordy.

In other words asking why we are the same rather than why we are different as a way to try to understand the TWAW stance.

I'm literally all ears