Please can someone who thinks that TWAW..

[BertrandRussell]

...explain to me the intellectual process that got you there? I promise -and as far as I can I promise on behalf of other people - not to challenge or argue and only ask clarification questuons. I just want to understand, even if I don't agree.

Argh, late, sorry Bert I'll have to come back to you

Not that they should be able to wear what they want, call themselves what they want and lead their lives peacefully, unharassed and protected by the laws that protect us all. Everyone-or everyone worth engaging with- thinks that.

My biggest issue is that I agree with the above statement.

I don't agree with self ID and the fact that it gives everyone access to any and all single sex areas and all of the potential dangers that may bring.

But I can't see how the first statement can happen without some sort of inclusion of trans people into single sex spaces.

Eg in everyday life what facilities (toilets, changing rooms etc) would a trans man or woman use?

Without some form of inclusion they clearly won't be able to dress as they want or live their lives peacefully and unharrassed.

This is where the arguments in my head go round and around in circles.

I feel excluded, as a woman, from any discussion on here about my thoughts or fears on this subject because of the abuse that occurs and so my thoughts on this subject never develop.

If self ID does not go ahead how do you envisage trans people living their lives peacefully and unharrassed as you agree they should be able to?

Can you please define abuse? BrownPaper

I do understand your concerns about this, BTW.

And sorry, to answer you - most trans people have lived their lives peacefully and unharassed by women. Transexual people are not the ones pushing for self ID.

I know a lot of trans people in RL (masculine, feminine and non-binary) and have always been shocked by the struggles they’ve dealt with

I have to ask, because I don't know any non-binary identified people - what struggles do non-binary people deal with as a result of their non-binary status? I am genuinely curious.

“you have to acknowledge that "woman" in everyday life is not used to describe those with the confirmed characteristic of being of the female sex. It just isn't.”

Why do I have to acknowledge that? Who made the decision?

I think I might be non binary. I don't define myself by gender stereotypes. Never used that term though because I don't need to draw attention to myself

If you had some beans of differing sizes, shapes and colours, you could sort them by size, shape or colour. Rat's sorting uses one criteria, Bert's another.

You could, and they would still be beans and not tomatoes.

Rat people are using the biological definition of the word most of the time. When they say

• women’s changing rooms they mean biological women
• women’s health they mean biological women
• women’s awards they mean biological women, not people who think they are women.

I can’t think of a time when I say women and don’t mean biological woman, at heart.

Sometimes sorting is difficult but that doesn’t mean the definition is wrong.

Molo

In my analogy the beans are human beings (human beans). Tomatoes are dogs

Ultimately not one single one of us knows the sex of the people we call man or woman with any certainty. The gender binary and secondary sex characteristics contribute to our assertion, but we could never know if everyone we've ever taken to be a woman has been female. Or that anyone we've ever taken to be a man hasn't been

That is patently not true.

This short video highlights the problem of the 'ask a roomful of people' argument. It relies on you overriding your own innate ability to decode the world.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=xfO1veFs6Ho

Once society has done that to its members, chaos ensues. People can't question anything because all questions are circular and logic is discredited

We do on the other hand know when we are confronted with a self-proclaimed woman who isn’t one.

I see what Rat is saying but she has not been able to show that men can become women. Or that Transwomen are women. She’s made it a recognition issue. Which is interesting but not an answer. More truthful would be:

Transwomen are men who would like to be considered qualitatively as women even though quantitatively they are not.

Ultimately not one single one of us knows the sex of the people we call man or woman with any certainty. The gender binary and secondary sex characteristics contribute to our assertion, but we could never know if everyone we've ever taken to be a woman has been female. Or that anyone we've ever taken to be a man hasn't been

If this were true there wouldn't be much hope for the survival of the species.
The survival of the human race depends on males and females copulating and to do so, they need to identify each other.

As a species we do this remarkably well, even when wearing disguises!

Absinthe

Oh God that video

If self ID does not go ahead how do you envisage trans people living their lives peacefully and unharrassed as you agree they should be able to?
I think that’s for men to sort out. I am tired of being expected to put my own safety and that of other women and children at risk because some men can’t controll themselves.

Can you please define abuse? BrownPaper

Sure.
Read most threads on this topic and anyone posting a different opinion is very quickly rounded on, called "handmaiden" or similar, calls of "we see you".

No attempt to engage. No attempt at proper conversation.

Much of what they say is ignored. Questions aren't answered.

It basically ends up with a group of posters ganging up on one poster until that individual leaves.

That is what I meant be abuse.

I don't see how that progresses your argument in any way. I really do share many of your concerns but I don't feel able to join with you because I feel excluded by you.

Surely if anyone has a message that they want to get out then they have to engage in a way that the intended recipients of that message actually hear it?

I am on the fence on this subject. No of course I don't want abusive men, in any sense of the term, allowed unhindered into women's spaces.

But then if we say that trans men and trans women use the spaces of their own biological or natal sex I can't see how that even begins to work.

As women we may still have a person who appears very male ie dresses male, looks like a man, has a beard etc coming into the ladies toilet or changing room? I find that very odd.

Equally a trans woman has to use the men's toilet? Even though no one would even give them a second look if they passed them in the street?

In these instances all that I can see is that they would be harassed and therefore the statement made by the OP that they do want trans people to live peacefully and unharassed is unrealistic.

Maybe what I'm asking for is how do you see the practicalities of what you are asking for working in real life?

I am female. But how will people decide that I am "really" female if say I want to use the toilet? Will there be an inspection of my genitalia before I am assigned a toilet to use? Or maybe a DNA test so that they can see of I am XX or XY?

I agree with a lot of the feminist argument. I don't agree with how the argument is put across and I don't see how in real life, rather than in academic arguments, it can be put into practice.

But I want someone to break it down and explain it to me. Just without insulting me or calling me names.

If your definition of 'woman' allows a male bodied convicted rapist on to a psychiatric ward you need to have a rethink.

“I think I might be non binary. I don't define myself by gender stereotypes”

Have you considered the nightmare scenario that you might actually be......a feminist? We don’t identify ourselves by gender stereotypes either. We get a lot of hate and abuse for it, and it can be exhausting, and we are very unpopular on Mumsnet. But there are more of us in the world than you realize.........

That’s all well and good, but I can’t idenitfy my way out of endometriosis by saying I’m a man.

If I’d told the multiple men who sexually assaulted me that I’m a man, would it have stopped it from happening?

I couldn’t prevent myself from being pregnant or being discriminated against by employers for having kids by saying I’m a man.

Women experience these and other oppressions because of their biology. Saying I’m not a woman wouldn’t stop them.

Bertrand

Yes I have come to that shocking conclusion...

It's not very trendy though, is it ?

If your definition of 'woman' allows a male bodied convicted rapist on to a psychiatric ward you need to have a rethink.

👏👏👏

Transwomen are men who would like to be considered qualitatively as women even though quantitatively they are not.

So would you describe a trans man as a woman?

How do you define a woman? Really the only answer that works is "has XX chromosomes". Because if you start to add in any other biology it doesn't apply to all women. So does that make those women not women? Clearly not.

The survival of the human race depends on males and females copulating and to do so, they need to identify each other.

But many people, men and women, have no interest in copulating with the opposite sex nor of having children.

Teddy

I think you need to own your reactions to posts rather then apportion blame to others.

My posts also very rarely get responded to. I think my posts are often more moderate/conciliatory/questioning than most.

I don't think this abusive, I expect they get overlooked because the don't strike a chord or resonate or interest other posters.

With regard to people disagreeing with posters, it is wrong to quantify the number of people responding with abuse. Abuse would only be present if the content were abusive.

BrownPaperTeddy I remember you from my Confused thread and am thinking you're referring to that thread. Your perception is different to mine as the one poster who argued that TWAW was the one that refused to answer any questions after repeatedly being asked the same things so then people got pissed off. I got pissed off and asked if they were a man or a handmaiden because they certainly weren't putting women front and centre . I didn't call them one. I asked if they were one. Quite different. That thread was actually very helpful in highlighting the issue with thinking TWAW. This thread further illustrates mine.