'Men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies'

[Glasstree]

Hello, this is my first post in feminism (I've NC so I can join this board but am a long-standing lurker, occasional poster, but I really want to stop passively lurking and join the conversation).

I came across this twitter thread and it made me stop and think about how the abortion debate is framed, particularly her take on why men don't use condoms and putting the responsibility for unwanted pregnancies firmly on men's shoulders.

twitter.com/i/moments/1040468130433097728

I know this is probably not a new way to conceptualise this for lots of feminists, but it feels like a bit of a lightbulb moment for me and I wanted to share and discuss some of her ideas. Personally, I think there should be less emphasis on PIV sex and more education for everyone on other methods of contraception like the rhythm method etc. Also for sex education to include discussions which recognise boys and men are responsible for their ejaculations and their consequences. Perfectly happy to be told I've got this all wrong, I'm sure there's lots I haven't considered, but it's really important to me as a parent to think about how I'm educating my children around sex and relationships.

How are men responsible for the unwanted pregnancy though (unless they rape the woman)?

To whom is it unwanted?

So, man and woman decide to have sex.

Discussion about contraception - views of each partner expressed.

Woman doesn't want to take responsibility (fair enough). Neither does man (fair enough) so woman says then we're not having sex. No pregnancy.

Surely the power lies with women? No condom no sex.

If a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she has options

• use birth control
• don't have sex.

Men can do or say what they want. No pregnancy, unwanted or not, can occur without a woman can it?

Again with the exception of pregnancy due to rape which is 100% the fault of the man.

I just can't fathom the original argument.

Say no!

I have a cute nephew who was born because of the rythm method. So I wouldn't advocate that.

The talk of hormonal birth control being terrible for women, but the male version quashed because of side effects is a bit of a red herring.

Women's birth control can have more side effects, and still be considered safe, because the thing it's preventing is pregnancy, which is dangerous, therefore the side-effects, on balance, can be more serious before the scales balance risk-wise.

For men, the side effects are balanced against no danger at all to them, so the bar is much higher.

Yes, at a society level, either method does the job, but on an individual level, balancing risks from BC/no BC, women are more prepared to take BC with more side effects, because the effect of no BC is much more serious for them.

She’s got a point. Women have sex and they might be fertile at that time. Or they might not and pregnancy may not occur.

Men know they are ALWAYS fertile. So men should be in a permenant state of worrying about not getting someone pregnant, and in search of long acting birth control.

Just read the tweet fully and 2 things stand out

1 - it says men can't get women pregnant without having an orgasm.

That's not true and all sex education explains that whilst it is unlikely, sperm can be present in fluid released before ejaculation.

2 - the whole article makes women appear very passive. It's all about what men are doing to women as though women have no say in anything eg " men don't like condoms" " men don't like pulling out method" etc

But women can say NO. If you don't want to have sex without a condom DON'T

Obviously if the man tries to pressure the woman or removes the condom secretly etc then that is abusive and a whole other conversation.

Both partners are responsible for unwanted pregnancies unless pregnancy occurs as a result of contraception failure.

I think Batteries explained it better than the twitter thread.

Women's birth control can have more side effects, and still be considered safe, because the thing it's preventing is pregnancy, which is dangerous, therefore the side-effects, on balance, can be more serious before the scales balance risk-wise.

For men, the side effects are balanced against no danger at all to them, so the bar is much higher.

That’s not taking into account the psychological impact of having a child. If you take mental well-being into account (and the effect on that of an unwanted pregnancy and child) then men may well be willing to take physical/health risks to prevent that.

Batteriesallgone

She’s got a point. Women have sex and they might be fertile at that time. Or they might not and pregnancy may not occur.

Men know they are ALWAYS fertile. So men should be in a permenant state of worrying about not getting someone pregnant, and in search of long acting birth control.

This makes a lot of sense. The Twitter thread not so much.

In reality, it’s not so easy to just say no. There is an expectation that if one is in a adult heterosexual relationship, one will be having PIV sex semi-regularly, at least.

Most women don’t orgasm from PIV, but men almost always do. It’s not women who decided that PIV is ‘sex’ and everything else is foreplay or an extra.

That’s not taking into account the psychological impact of having a child. If you take mental well-being into account (and the effect on that of an unwanted pregnancy and child) then men may well be willing to take physical/health risks to prevent that.

This is a good point - in fact I think it brings it back to the labour of childrearing being undervalued though, because I don't think many doctors or prospective men in need of birth control would consider that to be a strong reason, I don't think that even parents themselves would realistically think that way in most circumstances etc.

@Potatoandleeek

I understand what you are saying and don't necessarily disagree.

But how does that mean that men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies?

Are some men selfish lovers - sure

Do some many only think about their own enjoyment - yes

Are some men abusive/coercive around sex - definitely

But are men 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies - I'm not understanding that argument.

The financial impact then. If we got the child maintenance system properly sorted in this country demand for male contraception would probably shoot up

For men, the side effects are balanced against no danger at all to them, so the bar is much higher.

Give me a break.

Having a child is a risk to them. They may not have to carry the child or deliver it, but if it weren’t so easy for some men to abdicate all responsibility and do as little as humanly possible for their child, they’d see it as a risk too.

I agree with the twitter thread absolutely.

@Batteriesallgone

Am I misunderstanding the twitter post then?

Is this a way of saying that the burden of pregnancy/ childbirth falls unfairly onto women?

Should men have to shoulder more of that burden?

I agree with all that you are saying but it seems to me that the sensible arguments that you are putting forward are not the same as the arguments in the tweet.

Am I missing something though?

I think the argument is like this and forgive me the analogy.

Man and woman play a version of Russian roulette. The gun is pointed at the women’s head. Man has the gun. It’s loaded with all live bullets. It’s certain death. Women has a protective helmet. It works 90% of the time (let’s assume 3 fertile days in 30 for simplicity) but 10% of the time, they play and she dies.

They play. She dies.

It’s his fault for firing a gun he knew was live. He can say yes but I wanted to play the game!! She wanted to play the game!! We both consensually agreed to the fun risky game and both took the risk!

But we would still say - you fired a live gun and she died. That’s your fault. 100% you KNEW the gun was live and fired it anyway.

I think? It’s not my thread though I’m not even on twitter lol. Just my interpretation.

What I will be saying to DS is this:

You are responsible for your own contraception. If you do not want to become a father you must use condoms, every time, unless or until you are in a long term relationship where you trust your partner completely, and she satisfies you that she is happy to take on the burden of contraception for both of you.

If you do not use condoms, you are morally obliged to stand by the consequences of your actions, which may mean supporting your girlfriend/ex/one night stand in having an abortion, or may mean paying maintenance/being the most involved absentee father you can be if she decides to go ahead with the pregnancy. But if you try to just walk away from the situation, then you are a shit.

All the talk of irresponsible ejaculations makes it sound like men are walking around pudding trails of sperm which are impregnating any women who step in it.

Yes men should be more responsible, consequences ie financial should be more strongly enforced. But women aren't passive vessels awaiting boarding by the big captain!
Unwanted pregnancies are also caused by sex. Perhaps we should outlaw sex unless it is with the sole intention of procreation!

Thank you and yes I think you're right that both have a responsibility, but I still liked the thread for the fact that for once, it is emphasising men's responsibility, whereas it feels like usually it's only the woman. Although I do accept the point this makes women seem passive and yes there are inaccuracies around the window in which a woman can get pregnant or that it can happen even if he 'pulls out' /prior to ejaculation. I guess I'm just tired of the sense it is ALL the woman's responsibility, because it's her who bears the physical consequences. I also have issues around contraception, mainly as I've suffered so badly myself from side-effects from hormonal contraception. But I understand women have to weigh up the risks of pregnancy while men don't. And while men may have psychological consequences of having a child, they may not too - see the number of men who walk away/don't pay maintenance etc. Regardless of what happens after the child is born, the woman will always have the physical and psychological consequences of pregnancy and birth.

I agree we should educate girls and women to feel comfortable saying no condom = no sex yes, but also that actually we should get to the point where they shouldn't need to have to negotiate this in the first place because boys/men understand the consequences, know they are equally responsible and are respectful of that so would want to wear a condom or use another method of contraception anyway. Does sex education in schools do this? I need to think on this more.

Don’t get me wrong, in my analogy the women is still an idiot for playing the game.

But that doesn’t mean the man can just shrug his shoulders and say well, she consented, shit happens.

I disagree with the idea that men aren't usually made aware of their contraception responsibility.

Thing is when you try to blame one side 100% you take away the ability of the other side to make grown up choices.

They BOTH wanted to play Russian Roulette to use the analogy upthred. She knew the chances and the consequences and she still told him to shoot. She can tell him not to shoot and put the gun away, she can put the safety lock on to stop the bullet escaping but she does (in a non abusive situation) have that right.

Woemn don't need patronising into being told its all the big man's fault and us little women shouldn't be held responsible for any choice we made

Fermat that is exactly what I've said to my DS and he has, as far as I am aware, taken it to heart.

No Glove = No Love

And yes as far as I know the condom talk goes to both sex in school.

I read this this morning. Came up on my feed as I'm a Mormon , I'm one way it was refreshing to have a view that wasn't typically Mormon and was a lot more open about sex than is typical. I didn't find myself agreeing though. Yes, I see the point and the roulette explanation a PP have helped. But, it's just too simplistic, I think I got hung up on he details. Women can get pregnant more than 2 days a month , women can get pregnant from pre-cum and a few others bits she said.

Yes, women can pleasure themselves and not get pregnant, but we still chose to engage in PIV sex, frankly men can pleasure themselves too without getting anyone pregnant, PIV sex is a mutual agree, least it should be. I personally don't like the feel of condoms but we still use them.

I guess I just don't see where this argument is leading ... so what is she saying, stop having PIV sex, or use a condom? So we use a condom mutually agreed, condom splits, whose fault is that? Or woman uses birth control, says it's ok we are protected and it fails.

Yes, man absolutely need to take more responsibility, but her stating it's 100% on them is ridiculous, it's not like we are passive participants in sex, least we shouldn't be.