'Men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies'

[Glasstree]

Hello, this is my first post in feminism (I've NC so I can join this board but am a long-standing lurker, occasional poster, but I really want to stop passively lurking and join the conversation).

I came across this twitter thread and it made me stop and think about how the abortion debate is framed, particularly her take on why men don't use condoms and putting the responsibility for unwanted pregnancies firmly on men's shoulders.

twitter.com/i/moments/1040468130433097728

I know this is probably not a new way to conceptualise this for lots of feminists, but it feels like a bit of a lightbulb moment for me and I wanted to share and discuss some of her ideas. Personally, I think there should be less emphasis on PIV sex and more education for everyone on other methods of contraception like the rhythm method etc. Also for sex education to include discussions which recognise boys and men are responsible for their ejaculations and their consequences. Perfectly happy to be told I've got this all wrong, I'm sure there's lots I haven't considered, but it's really important to me as a parent to think about how I'm educating my children around sex and relationships.

It definitely prompts a discussion about responsibilities etc.

I just wonder if the extreme example diminishes the argument some what?

As we all seem to agree, it's portraying women as passive, with no active role to play and that's rubbish.

but also that actually we should get to the point where they shouldn't need to have to negotiate this in the first place

I disagree with this. I think we should always negotiate the terms of a sexual relationship. Both parties should discuss and agree to what is going to happen.

I imagine she’s using the 100% thing for shock value / to get people talking

When I first saw this thread I thought you were bonkers, then when I started reading the Twitter thread it was like 💡 -💡 -💡 - each page made a lightbulb go on! It makes so much sense.

To be fair, I have subtly broached the idea with my own teen DCs that there are other things you can do with a loved one that aren’t as risky as PIV. In fact DP and I have used the rhythm method (rarely PIV, only the day or two before my period starts - mainly other stuff the rest of the month) successfully for 6 years, as he is a condom refuser (tried first few times - was a flop!) and I refuse hormonal BC. More should be made of this I think, but while porn is so mainstream, men’s pleasure is even more centred than it ever was. Sadly the rise of popularity in anal may well be a crude attempt at BC.

Men and women should equally consent to sex

In reality though they don’t

My Facebook parenting groups are full of women post baby who are putting themselves through painful sex, ‘giving in’ to sex because of nagging, etc etc. They wouldn’t describe it as rape (I would, from their descriptions)

Recently I asked one women what her partner said about the fact she finds sex excruciating - she said she hasn’t told him as she doesn’t want to hurt his feelings (!!!)

Very often women ARE incredibly passive and have sex done to them. At least this is an attempt to get men to think about where the responsibility lies in such a dynamic.

@Batteriesallgone

And that's a whole issue in itself isn't it?

I guess we can also look at pressures on young girls, and boys to a lesser extent, to have sex because it is expected.

Many women will feel pressure, not just from their individual partner, but within a wider context.

All of that is wrong and needs addressing and somehow we need to find a way to empower girls and women to be true to themselves. To not accept pressure to conform.

But is that what this tweet is meaning?

In a way it feels like it's putting women down. Almost like we have no say, no power, no choice. Men will do what they want and our only hope is to educate men into looking after us better. I don't want a man to decide on my contraception. I'll decide that for myself.

That has always felt like a powerful place for me to be as a woman - that the choice to have a baby 100% lies with me.

I agree with the statement that 100% unwanted pregnancies are men's fault.

By extension: 100% of pregnancies are caused by men and all pregnancies occur because a man has allowed it to happen.

But plenty of men feel under pressure to perform when they're not in the mood as well.

Ah yes. All those men with torn penises post baby who are being pressured into ‘performing’ by a woman who is physically stronger than them. Happens all the time.

I do think context is key - the societal context of women being passive in regards to sex, but expected to be the party in control when it comes to contraception.

When you think about it, THAT is the headfuck.

My impression is that she is accepting the dialogue that women are passive (don’t know what the Mormon attitude to sex is, but religions don’t tend to be particularly empowering towards women) but saying look is I accept that, then men must accept responsibility for contraception.

I can't really engage with this because I can't use condoms. Something to do with my vagina's pH. No condom has ever survived an encounter with me, regardless of partner.

I gave my DSs the same talk as FermatsTheorem. I have seen the heartache caused when a baby is born to a couple who hardly know each other - and don't like each other either. Men should always take responsibility.

But for me contraception has never been a major problem. No significant side effects from the pill and I will always be grateful for the complete disappearance of my periods after the insertion of my Mirena IUD. Getting it in was a total bastard, though, which is why it's still in there years after I must've gone through the menopause.

Women have far more to lose than men when it comes to pregnancy. For example I suffer chronic pain from a pregnancy related back injury that happened 25 years ago.

I would trust a man to take hormonal contraception in a LTR, but I've been fairly promiscuous in my time and wouldn't be prepared to accept some attractive bit of mystery was on the pill on his say so. That's what strikes me as a a major problem with men using something you can't see or verify. Men are happy to do so partly because they still can just walk away.

Prawn but isn’t a lot of the issue there because sex = PIV? Should we not be having more conversations, particularly with teens, that actually, mutually enjoyable sex (which is the only way, surely) can be many things, not just PIV, which is known to be not so enjoyable for women and of course often very dangerous. There is too much emphasis on PIV.

Arthuritis I agree with you that sexual relationships & contraception should be negotiated, but I also agree with this from Batteriesallgone :

'I do think context is key - the societal context of women being passive in regards to sex, but expected to be the party in control when it comes to contraception.

When you think about it, THAT is the headfuck. '

I think what I was trying to say is that these conversations shouldn't have to be initiated by the woman, but should be something both partners are aware of, have thought through and take responsibility for. I know this isn't what I said up thread - I'm trying to think this all though. I also worry about the power dynamics etc and what other posters are saying about women feeling pressured/coerced etc.

And I agree too much emphasis on PIV as the only way.

prawn I am latex-allergic and use either femidoms or non-latex condoms. These might work better for you. My IUS means I don't really fear pregnancy but you bet your life I'm terrified of STIs.

An irresponsible male ejaculation is both necessary and sufficient to cause an unwanted pregnancy unless the woman has actively taken steps to prevent that, steps that can fail, have negative consequences for her health, and wouldn't be needed if he took responsibility for his own fertility. It's hence reasonable to frame unwanted pregnancies as 100% preventable by men.

I'm not latex allergic, so I don't think it's that that eats the condom.

Also I adore PIV sex. Oral sex makes me fall asleep. Fingering is good, but sex without PIV to me is like going to a restaurant, sitting down, nibbling some bread sticks and leaving. I'm multi orgasmic during PIV. That's why my experiments with other women never hit the spot.

Though there may well have been developments in condoms since I last asked. Perhaps I should get down to Boots (which make terrible condoms, btw).

I think it is infantilising nonsense to say men are 100% responsible.

I think that both the man and the woman should assume that they are taking 100% of the responsibility for preventing pregnancy and also sexually transmitted diseases. So women should make sure they are using the pill/coil and/or condoms, and men should use condoms.

Of course, the practicalities do change, if you are in a committed relationship - dh and I don't use condoms because I have a Mirena coil, he's had the snip, and we are both faithful and always have been, so no risk of sexually transmitted diseases. But the basic theory remains the same - we have both taken responsibility for contraception (although my Mirena coil is primarily to treat heavy periods, it is also a contraceptive).

Spot on post. STDG

I agree with STDG. And I must sort out the condom thing if I'm going to start dating again.

Agree to 100%both.

The problem is when you put responsibility just on men because like women should just lie back and have it done to them and then talk about castration for unwanted pregnancies or vasectomies at 14 until they want a child it just makes the conversation ridiculous.

Very often women ARE incredibly passive and have sex done to them this is what we really should focus on. Teaching our daughters that it's ok to not have sex, they don't owe men sex, that their pleasure is as important as a man's. Teaching our sons that no woman owes them sex, that having sex doesn't make them a man and that sex given reluctantly or under pressure is not the sex they want.

I think the thread would make more see if it was framed as men could stop 100% of abortions.

I liked the concept but not really true in real life. Women and men choose to take a gamble with pregnancy. You can insist he wears a condom. If you do find it difficult to ask your partners to wear a condom, then take birth control. We each take responsibility for our own contraception. How many men have ended up with unwanted kids because, she said she was on the pill.

I'm disappointed to hear about the male conteceptive pill though. I was keen to put dh on that, stop him getting a vasectomy.

mutually enjoyable sex (which is the only way, surely) can be many things, not just PIV, which is known to be not so enjoyable for women and of course often very dangerous

Since when was piv not enjoyable for women, and why very often dangerous?

I know that some women can't cum from piv, but thats not all/most women. I think for most, if piv isn't enjoyable and is dangerous, then your probably doing it wrong, or with a horse.

The woman is a twit (would have thought the Mormon thing would have given that away). Unless the woman was raped both parties share equal responsibility.

But plenty of men feel under pressure to perform when they're not in the mood as well.

Lol. Seriously this is brilliant. Have you got any more like this?

On the actual question, flip it around.

How many unwanted pregnancies could women create if there were no men?

Zero.

Therefore men ARE responsible for 100% of unwanted pregnancies.

Of course men are 100% responsible for pregnancies. All pregnancies, not just unwanted ones. Women don't get pregnant from sex unless it's sex with a man!