'Men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies'

[Glasstree]

Hello, this is my first post in feminism (I've NC so I can join this board but am a long-standing lurker, occasional poster, but I really want to stop passively lurking and join the conversation).

I came across this twitter thread and it made me stop and think about how the abortion debate is framed, particularly her take on why men don't use condoms and putting the responsibility for unwanted pregnancies firmly on men's shoulders.

twitter.com/i/moments/1040468130433097728

I know this is probably not a new way to conceptualise this for lots of feminists, but it feels like a bit of a lightbulb moment for me and I wanted to share and discuss some of her ideas. Personally, I think there should be less emphasis on PIV sex and more education for everyone on other methods of contraception like the rhythm method etc. Also for sex education to include discussions which recognise boys and men are responsible for their ejaculations and their consequences. Perfectly happy to be told I've got this all wrong, I'm sure there's lots I haven't considered, but it's really important to me as a parent to think about how I'm educating my children around sex and relationships.

But 12 year olds are deemed sometimes, even in Scottish courts, as being sexually active Lass.

You like the Daily Mail Lass so have a wee look at this.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4324482/Man-21-admitted-raping-12-year-old-girl-walks-FREE.html

Because not only do some men not put on a condom, but they also couldn't give a shit as to whether the person they are having sex with is under age. If an adult male cannot discern the difference between a consenting woman and a 12 year old when it comes to sex, then they shouldn't be allowed out.

But we aren't talking about rapists and nor was the article that prompted OP.

We are only talking about fully consensual sex between two adults.

Any man abusing a woman or forcing her to do something through coercion is obviously 100% responsible for his actions.

We are talking about equal partners being equally responsible.

Surely you acknowledge that there is a difference between sexual assault and sex?

Some people go their whole lives only experiencing coerced sex. It’s not rare. Plenty of women don’t discover their own sexuality, don’t orgasm, have babies, don’t properly recover, go their whole lives negotiating or giving in to sex.

I know it’s oh so woke to pretend this isn’t true and everyone is equal. Depends what circles you move in I guess.

Context is key. I think for women who understand the context of the twitter thread totally get the point she is making.

Feel free to talk about how in a vacuum, men and women would be equally responsible for pregnancy. But this IS the feminism topic, so I’m not apologising for approaching this with wider social problems in mind.

Surely you acknowledge that there is a difference between sexual assault and sex?

Sex to me is a biological difference between men and women.

Sexual assault is 'nice tits, give us a feel' 'bet you're up for it love, give us a cop' and both times actually touching. Nice bum, lovely to stroke. All by strangers and I didn't ask for this nor consent to it. Or go on love, I'll just put it in for a moment.

Sexual intercourse is intimate and very pleasurable for both partners. Each equally enthusiastic and up for the pleasure.

Surely you can see the difference?

But the post doesn't say that does it?

It doesn't say abusive men are 100% responsible for unwanted pregnancies.

It says men are 100% responsible.

So that includes all unwanted pregnancies even with fully equal and consenting partners.

And I have said several times now that of course abusive men are totally responsible for their behaviour.

I don't for 1 minute think that every woman is in a consensual relationship. But nor is every woman in a relationship with an abusive or coercive man.

@placemats

So what is rape then? Is that not a sexual assault?

And terribly sorry to use the incorrect terminology but I don't think that I have ever discussed having sexual intercourse with anyone. I'm sure that pretty much everyone would know what I meant if I said "I had sex yesterday" wouldn't they?

And for clarification - surely you understand that their is a difference between rape and sexual intercourse?

Although does rape not actually involve sexual intercourse ie the actual physical act is that of sexual intercourse. Rape refers to it being forced/non consential?

Rape is penetration into the vagina by an erect/non erect penis.

Sexual assault is penetration of the anus, mouth, (LOOK AWAY NOW), umbilical cord - belly button, ears, nose and other orifices that may be there because of bowel problems - yes people do get off on this.

Look,

If you love and care for the person you are having sex with and you are 100% fertile 100% all of the time then you are the keyholder to safe sex. End. Of.

But nor is every woman in a relationship with an abusive or coercive man

Ah, but, the number of relationships that are completely free of the influence of the patriarchy must be vanishingly small.

And where is the line between ‘hes just a being a man’ and ‘he’s abusive’ because I know plenty of women who say ‘that’s just how men are’.

If you love and care for the person you are having sex with and you are 100% fertile 100% all of the time then you are the keyholder to safe sex. End. Of.

Well we shall have to agree to differ. I am not a child and so i shall assume be the key holder for my own safety with regards to sex, thanks all the same.

And where is the line between ‘hes just a being a man’ and ‘he’s abusive’ because I know plenty of women who say ‘that’s just how men are’.

Not sure that there is a line between "he's just being a man" and "he's abusive" tbh.

He's just being a man sounds like it's an excuse for poor behaviour of some kind.

How does a man behave? I known plenty of men. Can't say there's behaviour in common other than what is also in common with other people that I know so some people are bossy, some laid back, some have a good sense of humour, some are untidy... Genuinely cannot say that I know how men behave or how women behave.

I’ll be honest I’m off anyway. This isn’t progressing.

If you’ve never heard a woman say ‘he’s just being a man’ when you would definitely describe what you just heard her say as abuse, we live not just in different worlds but different universes.

Yours sounds much fluffier than mine. Perhaps it has unicorns too.

But that was what I said - saying he's just being a man sounds like excusing poor or abusive behaviour.

An abusive man isn't going to take any sort of responsibility for a women's health or for preventing pregnancy is he?

Can't imagine a rapist pausing to put on a condom so that he doesn't pass on STI or to prevent a pregnancy. (maybe to conceal his DNA but that's just for his own good)

Why do all of these discussions have to descend into snidey insults? Why can't people discuss different points of view?

If you were a man dismissing a woman with comments like fluffy worlds and unicorns you'd be branded misogynistic.

Thanks Batteries, I very much enjoyed your comments particularly on this thread - and the original tweet - it was almost like a holiday to see males being held to account for a change.

As for the comments lamenting how this automatically translated into 'passive women vessels' - I guess you also believe in 'reverse sexism' too? No, don't answer. I suspect I already know.

Expecting a man to act mechanically with perfect timing and precision during a very close, intimate moment (unless the differences between the sexes are far greater than I'm aware) seems very unrealistic

Men do it all the time in porn flicks.

Men do it all the time in porn flicks.

I'm not an avid porn viewer so I'll defer to your expertise on the matter. Would you characterise the intercourse depicted in porn as a good example of how sex should be?

With reference to the twitter post a man could ejaculate 10 times a day - without a woman present no pregnancy will occur so

Correct: his responsible ejaculations without a woman present cannot cause a pregnancy. His irresponsible ejaculations into a woman's body can cause a pregnancy and he is, by ejaculating irresponsibly into her, 100% responsible for her then becoming pregnant. If her birth control works, lucky her, but if it fails, the pregnancy is his fault. He didn't have to have sex with her, even if she asked him too.

If I agree to play russian roulette with you and I shoot you dead, I am a murderer. The fact that you agreed to russian roulette makes you stupid, but not a murderer. If you begged me to play russian roulette, I am still a murderer, not you.

General principle: if persons A and B consent to A committing some act X that puts B at risk of an adverse outcome, and B suffers as a consequence of act X, then A is to blame for B's suffering. It applies to surgery when you can sue for malpractice when your doctor screws up, it applies to being the passenger in a car if the driver crashes and injures you, you get compensation off the driver's insurance even if you consented to being in the car. It is a startling omission that when it comes to sex and pregnancy, people think that this principle does not apply. I believe that the explanation is a single word starting with m, ending with y, and is the greek for "woman-hatred".

Gronky the point sailed past you. Porn actors have to control orgasm rigidly, it's a skill of the trade. This isn't how sex is portrayed on film, this is what men having sex raping actresses on set have to do as part of the trade. And whilst the circumstances under which they do so are very very questionable, that they do so proves that men can control when they ejaculate.

If I agree to play russian roulette with you and I shoot you dead, I am a murderer.

If you're shooting someone else dead then you're either not playing Russian Roulette properly or you're unlikely to be in a state to be tried for their death because you've shot yourself in the head. Even if you do somehow survive a bullet to the head, it would likely be treated as manslaughter since a prosecutor would have a difficult time proving intent if you're in custody with 2 more holes in your head than is normal.

the differences between the sexes are far greater than I'm aware

On that front, they are. The penis has fewer nerve endings over a wider area compared to the clitoris. The sensation is less intense.

If you're shooting someone else dead then you're either not playing Russian Roulette properly

I do apologise, I meant Russian Poker. Russian Poker is the variant where you spin the chamber and point the barrel at someone else.

Porn actors have to control orgasm rigidly, it's a skill of the trade.

Sorry, I'm not intimately familiar with pornography but, based on your description, I wouldn't characterise its production as an example of enjoyable sex (hence why the participants are being paid). I never argued that control is impossible, merely that enjoyable sex (for both parties) especially when there's a healthy emotional component is rather less than compatible with that level of control.

If I agree to play russian poker with you and I shoot you dead, I am a murderer. The fact that you agreed to russian poker makes you stupid, but not a murderer. If you begged me to play russian poker, I am still a murderer, not you.

merely that enjoyable sex (for both parties) especially when there's a healthy emotional component is rather less than compatible with that level of control. Yes, that's a legitimate point. There's still condoms and vasectomies, men don't have to spray their swimmers all over their partner's cervices.