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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Debbie Hayton in the Times

748 replies

Igneococcus · 13/09/2018 06:22

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/women-are-right-to-have-concerns-over-trans-reforms-5kj5k28sd?shareToken=aa090ad90f6f886db629247a0d6ca19b

OP posts:
happydappy2 · 13/09/2018 11:40

And they've pulled all comments from the article about transgender trend yesterday....who is making them do this-who has that power?

LangCleg · 13/09/2018 11:42

That's the third trans-related article in the Times that has opened comments and then redacted them. Worth asking Janice Turner or Andrew Gilligan if they know why?

Needmoresleep · 13/09/2018 11:44

The detail, like who are allowed in prisons and refuges, is important. But the right to free speech, and the ability to debate that detail, is overwhelmingly important.

Cascade220 · 13/09/2018 11:44

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deepwatersolo · 13/09/2018 11:45

I don't know, what planet you guys lived on. But in my world, until a few years back, female only spaces were occasionally speckled by creeps. It was rare, because women would raise hell if some creep paraded around their penis and may have called management if they suspected that someone was a actually man.

There may be some utopia where this never happens, and your daughter will definitely never see a penis, or male, in the changing room, for the mere reason that this is her right. But I've never been there. If you can tell me, how to achieve it, I am all ears.

Now, by contrast, and even more if self-ID becomes law (it is already applied in some places, not being law), a woman cannot object if some creep parades around their penis in a changing room, after all it may be a female penis and erections are something natural, aren't they? Not even a beard is enough to absolve a woman of bigotry and harrassement, if she calls management to have said person removed.

Personally I would go back to scenario a, or - if you can tell me how - to scenario b. Can you?

Now, if your point is, that males with SRS should be allowed in those female only spaces and no GRC process exists (is that your point?), I would like to point out that also in this scenario, you will not be able to police that, unless you change policies, so that women are empowered to call management and have the ID of any person they suspect of being male checked. Even if the law says it is clearly your right to have female only spaces and no male is allowed to enter.

It is a bit like the right to property. That stealing is outlawed doesn't always mean that nobody will steal from you. Therefore procedures were developed to hold thieves to account...

deepwatersolo · 13/09/2018 11:47

make that:
Now, if your point is, that no males with SRS should be allowed in those female only spaces

drradfem · 13/09/2018 11:48

On the anniversary of Speakers' Corner it would have been nice to have an acknowledgement in The Times that a year ago a woman was hit by a TW for attending a meeting about the GRA, but I doubt Debbie even knew it was today.

If Tara Flik Wood goes on to get a GRC under the current system, would you consider him a woman?

Debbie, do you use she pronouns for Maria MacLachlan's assailant?

happydappy2 · 13/09/2018 11:51

spartacus yr right-comments there-not sure what my PC is playing at. However, my comments have not been printed....even though I re phrased 2nd time to be very tactful

Cascade220 · 13/09/2018 11:53

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Cascade220 · 13/09/2018 11:54

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Ereshkigal · 13/09/2018 11:59

Now, if your point is, that males with SRS should be allowed in those female only spaces and no GRC process exists (is that your point?

No! The people you are disagreeing with don't believe males with SRS should ever be allowed in female spaces. No males. There should be third spaces for transsexuals. GRC irrelevant should be repealed

Ereshkigal · 13/09/2018 12:02

Safeguarding relies on clarity. Once you start blurring the boundaries of female/male (and adult/child?) you open up risky loopholes. Once you say some males can enter female spaces you make it easier for other males to access, and harder for women and girls to say no.

This, precisely.

deepwatersolo · 13/09/2018 12:11

No! The people you are disagreeing with don't believe males with SRS should ever be allowed in female spaces. No males. There should be third spaces for transsexuals. GRC irrelevant -- should be repealed

Ok, and how are you going to mke sure that this becomes not only law but also reality? I think I have asked 3 times now.

Ereshkigal · 13/09/2018 12:12

Obviously I don't have the power to "make sure" of anything Hmm or we wouldn't be in this situation.

Ereshkigal · 13/09/2018 12:13

Why don't YOU start engaging with what people are actually saying, rather than what you think they want?

happydappy2 · 13/09/2018 12:14

deep water if trans women were legally recognised as trans women (rather than women) & were provided with third space option for changing rooms, they would have no legal right to access female only space-the law as it stands is not fit for purpose imho.

deepwatersolo · 13/09/2018 12:18

Obviously I don't have the power to "make sure" of anything hmm or we wouldn't be in this situation.

Well, but 'making sure' is at the heart of safeguarding. And my suggestion was to empower women again to call people with a penis out and allow women to involve management if they are unsure about a person's sex, instead of calling that bigoted and a hate crime and have management regularly side with the penised and possibly bearded man - because self-ID.

Ereshkigal · 13/09/2018 12:20

I would set the bar higher than that. You disagree? That's fine.

Cascade220 · 13/09/2018 12:23

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BarrackerBarmer · 13/09/2018 12:34

Good point SpartacusAutisticus.

I should clarify - I wouldn't actively give time to campaign for 3rd spaces, there are enough worthy causes to occupy me already. I would support the principle, if the demand existed.

Ereshkigal · 13/09/2018 12:38

Yes me too. Thanks for the link Spartacus, it's a very important campaign.

LangCleg · 13/09/2018 12:49

Safeguarding relies on clarity.

It also relies on scepticism, which is why it is incompatible with self-ID. And I'll add: self-ID of anything, not just "gender".

Cascade220 · 13/09/2018 13:01

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UndercoverGC · 13/09/2018 13:29

Thanks Debbie. I think you're right.
Sex offenders lie. I'm dealing with the fallout of that today. Sex offenders will lie about being women for access to victims, same as they will lie about a lot of things.

stillathing · 13/09/2018 13:52

thanks for the link spartacus. it is shameful that there isn't better accessible provision.

toilets are mixed gender already, but single sex. and really that makes sense because we are told there are countless new genders.