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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'Momentum' video on transgenderism

89 replies

snugglybeans · 06/09/2018 15:37

Was shocked to see this come up on my newsfeed.

The bit where they say: "Your children will definitely have trans friends, they might even be trans themselves" sent shivers down my spine.

Are we supposed to just accept this as inevitable?

It's from Corbyn's main supporters' group I think.

www.facebook.com/PeoplesMomentum/videos/1934599106834234/
MNHQ has edited this OP slightly to correct a mistake where non-preferred prounouns were used**

OP posts:
FloralBunting · 06/09/2018 18:34

Mrbatmun, yup.

It's that time of day again, I didn't realize it was bingo time, but sex-based spaces = racial segregation is always a heartwarmer, isn't it?

placemats · 06/09/2018 18:38

Crystal ball gazing?

'More and more people will come out as trans now!'

Or happy to allow Ian Huntley to self Id (he already has) as trans?

Lie with dogs and you pick up fleas.

Handy tip. Stop coming down with the kidz persona. It's cringe.

ToeToToe · 06/09/2018 18:45

Yes, the poor men being excluded and oppressed by female only spaces - that exist for women's safety.

It's exactly like the struggle for civil rights in the USA. Hmm

placemats · 06/09/2018 18:46

Is this the Juno Dawson who said

'A lot of gay men are gay men as a consolation prize because they couldn't become women'?

twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1037641263103832064

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 06/09/2018 18:54

Is it time for a public service announcement?

Anyhoo, if being inclusive means letting kids be who they want to be, wear what they want to wear, play with what they want etc, them I am 100% there and happy. I'll even call John, Jane if they prefer it.

Butt if it means that girls have to "welcome" boys into sporting events and see all their dreams of success shattered or if girls demand they play rugby with the boys and get badly injured, if it means girls have to shower next to a boy or sleep in a tent with him. Then no, sorry.

placemats · 06/09/2018 18:58

Alice you can't have one without the other, otherwise you are a bigot. And a person that rhymes with surf.

NothingOnTellyAgain · 06/09/2018 19:00

According to some of the various definitions flying around,

Pretty much everyone is trans.

So yes everyone will know loads of trans kids and trans adults as well.

Most people espeically girls would hesistate before "identifying" wholeheartedly with the expectations around presentation and behaviour that are assocaited with the sexes.

Mrbatmun · 06/09/2018 19:01

The tag line 'Can We Not Just Skip It' and Juno's faux casual exasperation with all this talk of women being concerned that their own rights might be being eroded and that children may be being harmed?

I mean yeah, being prevented from riding totally roughshod all over someone else's rights just to validate yourself must just be like soooooooo annoying.......

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 06/09/2018 19:03

Placemats,

Yeah, my bad...

NothingOnTellyAgain · 06/09/2018 19:05

Why are they having a homophobe give this talk?

Seems to be a LOT of homophobic and misogynist characters advocating on this topic.

placemats · 06/09/2018 19:13

It has now come to the point that debate and openness on this issue leads to transphobia and bigotry oh and being called a nazi. It's the perfect riposte and the perfect way to silence and acceptance.

And it reminds me of this:

If you tell anyone you'll get into trouble
You will be seen as the bad person

Fallingirl · 06/09/2018 19:40

This is truly bizzare timing. Shall we interpret that video as an invite to Aimee Challenor, who just became party politically available?

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2018 19:41

I'm making a list of people who will held culpable when the inevitable tide begins to turn and adults start to ask how they as children were allowed to mutilate themselves and engage in activities that were harmful to their physical and mental health.

Juno "children's author and homophobe" Dawson is on that list

KittyKlawsReturns · 06/09/2018 19:42

My concern is that if my son or daughter brought home a trans friend, that I would say or do something that made them feel unwelcome. I try not to judge.

I agree with MyDoctor about trying not to be prejudiced. I totally see the dangers in the self id element, but so many posters on on here seem to be generally uncivil towards trans individuals. I understand it's just 'collateral damage' in the wider debate but it still makes me feel uncomfortable.

I'm mildly irritated about the bottom comment. Just to be clear if my children brought a child identifying as trans home either as a child, teen, young adult I would be as welcoming as I would with all children/young adults. I certainly wouldn't judge (it isn't my place) and I absolutely wouldn't make them feel bad - they would, after all, be young vulnerable people. There is a big difference between disagreeing with an ideology and objecting to it being pushed onto developing minds and being cruel to people following that ideology. A big difference.

For me children and teenagers are never acceptable collateral damage and they would not be treated as such by me to make a point.

KittyKlawsReturns · 06/09/2018 19:44

Just to be clear 'mildly irritated' means by the idea of being prejudice for the sake of it and not a dig at the poster who wrote the bit I bolded above.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 06/09/2018 19:55

There is a big difference between disagreeing with an ideology and objecting to it being pushed onto developing minds and being cruel to people following that ideology. A big difference

For me children and teenagers are never acceptable collateral damage and they would not be treated as such by me to make a point.

Well totally. That's obvious to anyone who has spent any time on the FWR threads. It's just easier to say 'you hate all trans people and are homophobic pearl clutchers' than come up with actual arguments when you have no actual argument just a thin veneer of glitter and sparkles spread over a vast cess pit of misogyny, stupidity, craven vote-garnering and a significant minority of really unpleasant perversions (c.f.fur babies and incest porn).

Anlaf · 06/09/2018 19:55

Sorry for the long post but I want to capture this – and it’s as good a place as any.

The Mermaids gender charity have case studies printed on their website – and in each the parent, the mum, talks about their child liking the clothes, toys, hair of the opposite sex. This stereotyping – and it is stereotyping – is part of all of these stories.

I've removed the names as Mermaids don't seem to have changed them.

K, 40, is mum to A, nine and E, seven, who transitioned to live as a girl 2015. Here K, who is married to A, 46, explains how Mermaids have helped her family.
“From the age of two we started to notice that E didn’t quite fit in. I thought that my son was going to be gay, but it became apparent that there was something more than that…“E would look longingly at other little girls who were wearing dresses or skirts, and every time I picked her up from the childminder she would be have raided the dressing up box for a princess costume. She would come to the door to meet me in a sparkly pink dress and a tiara with a big smile on her face.

J, 40, is mum to T, nine. T was born female but began to identify as a male from the age of three. J lives with husband M, 40, and their daughter E, ten. Here she explains how Mermaids have helped her family.
“I’ve never brought my children up to particularly conform to gender stereotypes, so when T developed an obsession for Fireman Sam at the age of three I didn’t have a problem with it. He never wanted to wear a dress and rejected anything that was pink or flowery…“He had gorgeous blonde hair which fell in curly ringlets, and he begged me to let him have it cut short, in a boy’s style. I finally agreed and just before the new school term started I took him to the hairdresser, and reassured myself as it fell away that it was only hair, and that it would grow back. But T absolutely loved it.

L, 42, lives with son J, 12. She sought help from Mermaids after J told her he was transgender in July 2015. L, who is divorced, is also mum to H, 9
“Growing up I’d call J the anti-girl, as from being very small he never wanted to do anything that could be classed as at all girly. “I never bought my children gender-specific toys or pink or blue clothes, so the fact Jack loved Bob the Builder didn’t bother me at all. But I remember having to bribe him at the age of four with Bob toys in order to get him to wear a bridesmaid’s dress for my brother’s wedding.

D, 47 and P, 49, are parents to S, 14 who came out as transgender in 2014 and L, 12.
“But looking back I can see there were pointers. S always wanted to play with the dressing up box, and she always wanted to be a princess. She always wanted long hair too… When she got to the final year of primary school a natural split started to happen. Boys would sit on one side of the classroom and the girls on the other, and S began to be more aware that she didn’t feel like a boy and she didn’t want to sit with the boys or play with them.

C, 46, lives with husband M, 47 and sons W 14 and J, 11. W came out as transgender when he was 11. Here C explains the difference Mermaids has made to her family.
“There was always something not quite right for W, and from a very young age he didn’t really fit in. He was never a girly girl at all, and when I insisted he wore a dress to a family event when he was about eight he became hysterical at the prospect. I knew this wasn’t just a tantrum, he was genuinely distressed but wasn’t old enough to be able to tell me why it felt so wrong.

A non mermaids parent [for some reason quoted there]
I used to think I had a little boy. A lovely, sweet, feminine little boy who loved to wear skirts and dresses and twirl around the living room. Sometimes he would even ask us to call him a girl. Just pretending, we figured. How cute.

A, 45, is mum to C, 15 and O, six and the family live in Y. C transitioned from female to male when he was 12.
As soon as he could express himself it was clear that C saw himself as a boy. When he was learning to write in nursery the first words he wrote were ‘Mr’ and ‘he’. He would never wear girls knickers, instead he always wanted underpants, and the longest he ever had his hair was in a bob, which he hated. When I let him have it cut into a crop he was thrilled. All his friends at school were boys and every activity he wanted to do was typically something that boys would be more interested in.

From there, the story goes the same way - the child expresses distress (at onset of puberty or otherwise) and the parent searches in vain for an explanation - until transition is found (online, or sometimes via the Mermaids charity). Mermaids promote puberty blockers, after which around 100% of children then move onto cross sex hormones, causing certain sterility.

This is not just like being gay.

KittyKlawsReturns · 06/09/2018 19:58

MyDoctor

Surely Do unto others etc. is relevant when a school, for example, is putting the feelings of one child above an entire class of girls either in changing rooms or by making a sporting event unfair. Do unto others means that this discussion is a necessary one because otherwise children who don't identify as trans are 'collateral damage' in the trans ideology. Do unto others is relevant when a transwoman in changing facilities is making others uncomfortable (for reference there is a thread on Reddit where a transwoman with all their male genitalia is delighting in walking around naked , regardless of the feelings of others and another account of how encountering similar in a changing room made a woman feel). Do unto others is also relevant when someone of large masculine build like Heather Mouncey in Australian Rules football continues to play despite the fact they are dangerous to women playing and have, in fact, already broken a woman's leg. If I were a significant danger to others I wouldn't play in the AFL.

'Do unto others' can be applied both ways and it shouldn't be a pious way of reminding women we should just accept things to be nice.

KittyKlawsReturns · 06/09/2018 20:06

Good post Anlaf it shows how deviation from the idea of gender roles is taken as a sign of being trans rather than just different people liking different things. Gender is what we are TOLD we should like/do/look like BECAUSE we are male or female - but we don't have to adhere to that and no wanting to adhere to that shouldn't automatically mean someone (particularly a child) is trans and commit them to a life of medical intervention and dependence.

OlennasWimple · 06/09/2018 20:33

Why can't boys like playing dress up in princess dresses because pink is their favourite colour / they were a magpie in a former life and are drawn to sparkles / the narrative of being rescued, rather than being the rescuer, particularly appeals to them / the knight costume has a really scratchy lining that irritates their skin / they noticed how princesses are the centre of attention in stories, Royal weddings, media coverage and want to emulate that / dresses are more comfortable than trousers, particularly when it's hot / their best friend always pushes in front of them to get the knight costume, and rather than complain about this and risk their friend not wanting to play with them any longer, they pretend to like the princess dress better anyway?

Lottapianos · 06/09/2018 21:01

Jesus, those Mermaids quotes Hmm a little boy who loves pink and princess dresses is a little boy who loves those things, he is NOT a girl. These poor children . Whatever happened to adults encouraging children to role play and be imaginative, but still holding onto reality for them?

FanWithoutAGuard · 06/09/2018 21:15

Why can't boys like playing dress up in princess dresses because pink is their favourite colour

Me = let the kid dress up.
Mermaids=kid's body is wrong - puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and surgery when older.

Yeah - I think it's obvious who's the one with the prejudice problem here.

Wanderabout · 06/09/2018 22:32

It has now come to the point that debate and openness on this issue leads to transphobia and bigotry oh and being called a nazi. It's the perfect riposte and the perfect way to silence and acceptance

And it reminds me of this:

If you tell anyone you'll get into trouble. You will be seen as the bad person.

Fuck. You are spot on there Placemats

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 06/09/2018 22:45

Those poor little kids!

Either conform to random stereotypes or be condemned to mutilation, sterilization, and lifelong dependency on drugs.

And please note, I do not think this of adult gender dysphoria. Because they've been able to make this choice and many are clear sighted about the downside. But these are kids. Sold a lie and manipulated by conservative minded bigots.

FloralBunting · 06/09/2018 22:50

Alice, that's the really bloody irritating thing - it's the conservative minded bunch pushing these ideas, and yet all the leftie bods are lapping it up like it's the most progressive thing ever to drop down. And yet they are the first to critique the feminists for engaging with Hands across the aisle and the Daily Mail et al!! Completely blind to the inconsistency.

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