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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Unisex school toilets- daughter refusing to use them

100 replies

PerverseConverse · 05/09/2018 21:31

My eldest has just started at secondary school. The school Facebook group for the school is awash with angry parents saying that they did not know the toilets were unisex. Older parents are saying it's a new thing for this year. I've spoken to my daughter and she says she refuses to use the toilets at school because of this. She can't go 7 hours without a wee and holding it can lead to urinary tract infections. What's the best way to deal with this with the school?

OP posts:
Dragoncake · 06/09/2018 12:38

Central basins = hope they disinfect the toilet door inside locks and handles very regularly. Bleurgh.

MyDoctor · 06/09/2018 12:51

I remember stories from my own school days (all boys school) about pupils ejaculating on the door handles or toilet seat for the next unsuspecting user to discover. Not sure if it was a wind up but I'd be really uncomfortable if I was a girl and heard some boy in the cubicle next to mine pull his zipper down.

drspouse · 06/09/2018 13:04

It says separate toilets AND WASHING.

Needmoresleep · 06/09/2018 13:17

There was some major research a few years back about unclean school toilets and health, including real concerns about teenage girls, in particular, 'holding it in' all day. A real health risk.

This article gives some background:
www.nursingtimes.net/roles/nurse-managers/many-children-avoid-school-toilets-because-they-are-dirty/5050265.article

There is a charity ERIC www.eric.org.uk which is concerned about issue children with incontinence face. My guess they would see poorly designed unisex toilets as an additional barrier for already distressed teens.

deydododatdodontdeydo · 06/09/2018 13:25

Our school claims it reduces bullying because the only communal bit, the sink area is open to the corridors, so teachers and passing students can see in.
I think it's possible.
I was bullied horribly at school to the point I wouldn't go to the toilets because my bullies were waiting for me in there, and teachers rarely went in.

PerverseConverse · 06/09/2018 13:53

According to one of the dads on the group I'm just trying to stir up trouble as haven't got anything better to go and accused the parents group of being a mums gossip page. I'm so angry.

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drspouse · 06/09/2018 14:02

There is a charity ERIC www.eric.org.uk which is concerned about issue children with incontinence face.

We've looked at their support for our DD who is glacially slow to potty train. I know that many children with SEN have issues with going to unfamiliar and/or dirty toilets and a girl with anxiety over health/germs/cleanliness anyway is not going to be helped by a poorly-cleaned toilet.

BettyDuMonde · 06/09/2018 14:06

What a fucking tossed that man is. I’d block him.

FloralCup · 06/09/2018 14:09

I assume that the dad you mention only has sons

tiredandweary · 06/09/2018 14:17

PerverseConverse
I'd be relentlessly polite but respond that there is nothing wrong with parents looking to protect their daughters given the rates of rape and sexual harassment in schools. And ask (again) if pupils were consulted about this and whether the school has conducted an equality impact assessment. And then ignore.

bzzbeebzz · 06/09/2018 14:23

If he thinks it’s a mums gossip page then why is he intruding in a female space

FermatsTheorem · 06/09/2018 17:29

Post this link on the page and draw misogynist-dad's attention to it:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/dec/12/are-we-ignoring-an-epidemic-of-sexual-violence-in-schools

bd67th · 06/09/2018 20:16

One would think in the toilet cubicle with a bottle of water is more appropriate but seemingly not.

If I drop my cup in the sink, I can wash it with soap and carry on. If I drop it in the toilet bowl, I have to boil it or sterilise it in Milton. So I'll keep washing it in the sink, thanks.

PerverseConverse · 15/11/2018 10:41

I have finally emailed the headteacher regarding this. I've asked to see the Equality impact assessment and asked if the teachers facilities are also mixed sex. Will see what response I get.

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R0wantrees · 15/11/2018 10:47

Times June 2018 by Kelli Neale:
'Gender‑neutral toilets: My daughter was called selfish for wanting girls‑only loos at school'
(extract)
Pressure has been steadily growing over the past few years for single-sex toilets and changing rooms to be banned nationwide. Mental health is a driving force behind this movement — removing the black-and-white nature of gender segregation would help those who are gender-fluid, gender-querying or don’t identify with any gender at all.

However, yesterday ministers announced that they had “no intention” of changing laws that allow for single-sex toilets and changing rooms. And this means that whether a shop or cinema has unisex or single-sex facilities remains at its discretion.

For me this story has a particular, personal resonance. Last September my daughter came home from her co-ed school crying. “Oh no,” she said. “They’ve made the toilets unisex.”

“What, all of them?”

“Yes.”

“Are you sure?”

Cue eye-roll, then: “Of course I’m sure.”

“But why?” I asked.

She told me that it was to cater for transgender or transitioning children. And rather than just make a couple of toilets unisex (I had no idea how many transgender pupils there were in her school), the school changed the lot. My daughter told me that other girls in the school felt equally outraged and I wasn’t surprised. I dislike unisex toilets even as an adult, but imagine being a teenage girl having to open a sanitary towel or tampon with a boy in the cubicle next door. No, no and no. Girls need privacy.

I researched online. I read that the Barbican in London had scrapped plans for gender-neutral toilets after visitor protests. And I learnt that there’s been a rise in youth referrals to gender identity clinics: the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation in London apparently saw more than 2,000 teenagers last year compared with 100 eight years ago — but statistically that’s probably less than 0.1 per cent of the population.

I’m not a complainer, but after 48 hours of stewing I sent an email to the head teacher and the head of my daughter’s year. To the school’s credit, before the day was out I received a phone call from a teacher (although not the head) and a calm-ish discussion ensued. I was told that it’s a changing world and we need to be gender-neutral to help gender-confused pupils. “Fine,” I said, “but there must be a way to do it that doesn’t involve upsetting the entire female population of the school.”

I’ve a son who goes to a different co-ed school, with a transgender pupil in his year. His school doesn’t have mixed WCs. Instead there are a couple of single disabled toilets that can be used by everyone — much more sensible.

Talking of boys, I asked my daughter how her male counterparts felt about the new loos. “They’re pervs,” she joked. “They’re delighted. They’ll probably drill holes in the walls.”

My son (a non-perv) agreed that mixed toilets wouldn’t bother him either, but many of the girls shared my daughter’s views, as, it turns out, do most of my female friends. One suggested that mixed toilets could even promote promiscuity among older children. Call me old-fashioned, but the notion of not having personal space when you’re going through puberty is nonsensical whatever your gender. Where should we draw the line?

The weeks passed and my daughter — along with others who were unhappy with the new loos — kept complaining, but their complaints fell on deaf ears. They were told to put up and shut up and think of others. As a parent, this felt wrong. Did only the transgender voice matter? What about my daughter’s voice? Shouldn’t both be listened to?

My daughter saw red. She started a petition for boys, girls and gender-neutrals to sign. Hundreds did. She insisted that a school council meeting be held and unisex toilets discussed. They were. And you know what? Eventually hers and other unhappy voices were listened to. And against the odds the toilets were quietly changed back to how they had been, with a smaller provision of unisex toilets kept for those who choose to use them.

It’s been a tough but fulfilling school year in which my child has learnt that if you’re passionate enough about something, you can effect change." (continues)
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/genderneutral-toilets-my-daughter-was-called-selfish-for-wanting-girlsonly-loos-at-school-cwth60b2c

BarbarianMum · 15/11/2018 10:54

Im glad so many of you have such fond memories of girls only toilets at school -
I remember them being filthy and really scary to use. Lots of nasty jibes from older girls, no feeling of privacy and quite often you were just told to "get out". Ds1's secondary has only unisex toilets (floor to ceiling cubicles) with open plan layout. Far preferable to anything we were ever expected to use.

noraclavicle · 15/11/2018 10:58

Ds1's secondary has only unisex toilets (floor to ceiling cubicles) with open plan layout. Far preferable to anything we were ever expected to use.

But how would you know they’re preferable for girls, if a) your child is male and b) you’re presumably not using them yourself?

R0wantrees · 15/11/2018 11:01

Barbarian You are conflating a number things there ... old, poorly designed and maintained toilets, your personal experience of a school where you felt intimidated and were bullied and whether toilets are single or mixed sex.
A school could / should have:
clean, well maintained toilets
and ethos of cooperation without bullying
and single sex toilets / changing facilities which together would protect the safety, dignity and privacy of pupils.

BarbarianMum · 15/11/2018 11:02

I don't. Confused I only know that the girl I once was would have found them preferable. I don't even know what ds1 or his friends (male and female) think as Ive not asled them.

Randomusername01 · 15/11/2018 11:19

I dont like unisex toilets. Apart from the peeing/pooing/dealing with sanitory products with the thought of a man right next to me on the other side of something no better than a thick cardboard wall, it was actually the sharing of the hand basin and mirror when i came out. It had been a long day and my make up looked like shit, and I just didn't feel comfortable touching up my face/makeup in front of 2 strange men as daft as that sounds. Other random women i have no problem with but not men.

barelove · 15/11/2018 11:32

The teenage girls I know refuse to use the unisex toilets at the local college (single sex toilets are also provided) mainly because they are a stinking mess. After many years of cleaning loos in public buildings I can definitely say that mens toilets are gross compared to women's and I wouldn't want to use one after a man had gone in to take a piss. Suggest your daughter and her friends write their own letters stating how it affects them personally.

Weetabixandshreddies · 15/11/2018 11:32

The toilets at my daughter's school were disgusting - they stank, they were covered in graffiti and the ceiling was covered in bits of toilet paper that hung down like .

These were single sex toilets so it wasn't boys doing this.

She's currently sharing a house with a girl who refuses to flush the toilet. It's causing no end of drama.

It's not only boys that can leave facilities in a state.

barelove · 15/11/2018 11:36

True! But thankfully not so common :)

NotBadConsidering · 15/11/2018 11:43

It’s not about whether unisex toilets or single sex toilets are preferable to one person or another, it’s about being afforded the choice of one or the other, not being forced to use something you’re uncomfortable with.

Manderleyagain · 15/11/2018 14:00

It's also about schools acting within the law when they decide on new policies.

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