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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Can men be feminists?

128 replies

lovelilies · 30/08/2018 17:25

I'm pretty sure they can't, as they have the privilege of being male!
Please correct me if I'm wrong?

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 01/09/2018 09:54

There are things that men could star doing easily today to advance the cause of feminism exponentially. But they don't. That's a good reason not to call them feminists.

AngelsAckiz · 01/09/2018 10:26

They can benefit from feminism but they can't be feminists.

As soon as you let men have a say, they inevitably start asserting dominance, taking over and speaking for us.

And that's how liberal feminism was born.

Men can be allies by taking space they already have, and making it feminist, by moving aside for a woman to take the space.

Ereshkigal · 01/09/2018 10:43

What Angel said.

concupio · 01/09/2018 11:22

Bert - do you have some suggestions? I'm pretty stuck after (a) treating women like people, (b) challenging other men when they don't.

UpstartCrow · 01/09/2018 11:24

Time for Bert to post The List.

sawdustformypony · 01/09/2018 12:00

Jurgen - you're alright lad, but also I'd add, 'not bothered'

BertrandRussell · 01/09/2018 12:35

Did someone call for The List?

  1. Take full responsibility for their fare share of domestic work and childcare.
  2. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
  3. Stop using prostitutes.
  4. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel, board or committee they are on at least represents the sex balance of the organization - if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
  5. Stop watching porn.
  6. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.
  7. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.
  8. Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men. And that they are the man their children will learn about relationships from.
9) Make sure that they acknowledge, and let their children see them acknowledge, the contribution their wife or partner makes to the family. This is particularly when she is a SAHP.

(7 is not entirely serious)
(The list is getting longer-9 is new.

VickyEadie · 01/09/2018 12:41

Can I add one?

Never, ever tell women what they should or should not be afraid of.

I'm now sick to death of seeing men (and I include the young gay male member of my family who told me I had "nothing to worry about" when I expressed my fears about men coming into safe spaces under self-id) tell me what I shouldn't be concerned about.

sawdustformypony · 01/09/2018 12:45

yes, think before you talk to them and even then try to keep conversation to a minimum.

concupio · 01/09/2018 12:56

Thanks - good list. Although I'm not sure rewatching Nanette would help me much - I'm still mystified by her climactic "hindsight is a gift; stop wasting my time" line.

traceyracer · 01/09/2018 13:55

men can be feminist allies or supporters

RowleyBirkin · 01/09/2018 14:19

My daughter fights fascists! That's her protesting against Britain First types at Dover. They had stones thrown at them. I was very proud but told her not to do it again - couldn't help it, she could get hurt. And if that happened I'd have to become a costumed vigilante and wreak terrible vengeance on every right-wing gammon in the country.

Can men be feminists?
CharlieParley · 01/09/2018 14:27

Whatever your definition, feminism is an ideoloy. A belief system. Not an incontrovertible, material reality.

Therefore, the fact that someone who belongs to the oppressor class cannot simutaneously be a member of the oppressed class on the same axis of oppression is irrelevant in deciding whether a member of the oppressor class can adopt a belief system that fights for the liberation of the oppressed class.

Take the anti-slavery movement. By the definition many here hold, no one could ever be an abolitionist who is not or has not been enslaved. This is demonstrably untrue, as we know from history.

It is logical therefore to conclude that anyone can be a feminist who subscribes to and acts on the belief system called feminism. I think however, that the problem with this question, and why it is so hotly contested is that

a) the definition of feminism is not clear cut and for part of the feminist movement it has changed beyond recognition.

To me it means the liberation of females from the patriarchy. Like the liberation of humans from slavery, this can only be achieved by destroying that which oppresses us - the patriarchy.

Whether they're aware of it or not, for most libfems for instance, the fight for the equality of women as a sex has now become the equality of women as a gender.

And Libfems already start from a position of achieving equality from within the patriarchy, thereby capitulating from the outset to the system that oppresses us. The implications of marrying the latter position to the former are dire, as we know and the seeming predominance of this kind of feminism is, I would argue, what led us here, to the impending loss of a vital part of our rights.

Radfems, or as I call them feminists seek the liberation of females from the patriarchy by destroying the patriarchy. That does not mean revolution (although that would be faster); we can achieve this aim by dismantling patriarchal structures.

If you want to be a feminist then in my view, you must recognise and understand the structures and mechanics of the oppression of females and you must undertake steps to play your part in dismantling them, however small.

Any man who does this, is a feminist in my view (like the father of Malala for instance).

But and this is probably the more important reason for the disagreements:

b) The trouble is that most of the men who call themselves feminists are none of the sort.

If you look closer at their view, most take a libfem stance of working within the system (that serves them so very well after all) and advocating for equality, not equity - patting themselves on the back if the company they're running pays female staff the same wages for the same work but ignoring the fact that their C-suite consists entirely of men.

And the guy at home, who totally believes his wife should have equal rights, but when she finally starts to work after sacrificing her career, won't be taking over any of her duties (like staying at home to look after a sick child) or work fewer hours so she can devote herself to her own career, is not a feminist.

He might share the belief in the liberation of females, even understand the patriarchial structures, how they oppress women and why they must be destroyed, but he's not willing to make any personal sacrifices to do something to address the consequences of this oppression.

So can men be feminists - yes
Are the men who claim to be feminists, really feminists - unlikely

ShrodingersSturdyPyjamas · 01/09/2018 15:49

These 'feminist' men, how many have asked for a 20% reduction in pay to show their solidarity?

I am going to suggest none have. Zero. Nil. And I don't mean 'having to have a pay cut because of the virtue signalling of the employer', but actually asked for it.

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/09/2018 17:49

Didn't Jon Snow ask for that? He's one in a million though.

IAmSproutycus · 01/09/2018 18:01

Charleyparley, I don’t think your slavery analogy is quite right, although I liked much of the rest of your post. You said by the definition held here one would need to have been enslaved to be an abolitionist. I’m not sure men need to be enslaved to get the position (although I kinda do), it’s more that you can’t be an abolitionist whilst holding shares in slavery iyswim.

IAmSproutycus · 01/09/2018 18:02

So I sort of see your point that possibly men can be feminist, just I’ve never encountered one. And I count my pretty amazing DH who is petitioning, MP harassing, and stickering like a beast .

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/09/2018 18:11

Fish don't tend to see the water.

DH recently had a situation at work. He needed a team lead, two candidates. L a part-time working mum and carer for her parents and S a man-bun, hipster, stoner. S is lazy, often late and a know it all. L is hard-working, conscientious and DH really rates her work. He stomped around saying, "L can't do it because of her hours, I'm going to have to promote S". I said, "behold the patriarchy. S gets promoted even though he's shit".

DH mulled it for a couple of days. He's moving stuff around, taking more on his plate and L will be team lead. He's said that he's realized her kids won't be small for ever and he's damned if he's promoting S, who will take it as his due.

But he probably would have if I hadn't pointed it out. Because he doesn't see it.

ChattyLion · 01/09/2018 20:30

They can be allies. Fine.
None of the few men that have told me they were feminists, had views or did stuff that I would recognise as feminist.
Mostly IMO straight men who said this were trying to sound right-on because they thought it would make them more attractive to women.. Hmm

Vicky1990 · 01/09/2018 20:58

I think a lot more men would support femanist causes if femanist supported men's causes.

PositivelyPERF · 01/09/2018 21:05

if femanist supported men's causes

You mean like all the ‘woke feminists’. Nope. That’s a load of bollocks. Women have done nothing but support men, by doing the bulk of child care, sacrificing careers, taking on the mental load in families, sacrifice after sacrifice, and are still treated like shit. What you want, is for women to centre men. That’s not feminism.

BertrandRussell · 01/09/2018 21:09

“if femanist supported men's causes.”

Like what?

Cascade220 · 01/09/2018 21:10

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GreenMeerkat · 01/09/2018 21:11

I think they can definitely support it, and raise their children, sons in particular, to actively push for equality for women.

My Grandad, for example, asked my uncle (as a child) to do some washing up one day. My uncle replied 'no, that's a woman's job'. My grandad, who had NEVER encouraged this attitude (assume he'd heard it in school), was horrified and has done the washing up every day since to teach my uncle that that there is no such thing as 'women's work'. Obviously that's just one small example but it is an example of how men can support feminism, even if they can't actively engage.

CharlieParley · 01/09/2018 22:06

I am Sproutycus There were actual slavers among the abolitionists, working to abolish a system they were benefitting from. But on a more practical note, I think this debate mostly arises from the fact that few men act the way a feminist would act when given the opportunity.

My DH totally believes in equality, is hugely supportive of my business. Today he impressed me by delivering an excellent (rad)feminist critique of the execrable Caroline Lucas article. It gave me hope. I felt honestly proud of him. And as we all carry our views into the world and influence those around us so will he take his new gender critical views and share them with others whenever the subject comes up. Every little bit helps. But he is still no feminist.

There's a huge difference between acknowledging something is wrong and being willing to do something about it. Between theory and practice. Few men manage to act like a feminist and I think that's why so many women believe men just cannot be feminists.

MrsTerryPratchett I love that story. Very well done by your husband!

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