Can men be feminists?

[lovelilies]

I'm pretty sure they can't, as they have the privilege of being male!
Please correct me if I'm wrong?

These discussions are circular unless everyone is in agreement about what a feminist actually is.

The starting point has to be 'What is a feminist?', surely?

I can see how men calling themselves feminists would be patronising and annoying - "allies" is fine by me. Let us men be fully-fledged feminists and we'll start our own groups, shout you all down and write books about what feminism REALLY means and where you've all been getting it wrong...

A feminist is someone who advocates for full social, political, personal and financial equality for women. Who puts women front and center, and considers, when planning any action or decision, whether it impacts on other women, and if so, how.

Surely it's a bit sexist to suggest that the Oxford Dictionary might be inaccurate on the basis of it being run by men...

On that one your predominantly male run institution would tend to disagree with you.

I like Rowley let's keep him.

I'd avoid any self-proclaimed 'male feminist' as 99% of them are awful, 'nice guy' types who think they deserve a medal for being 'pro-equality'. 'Male feminists' are always of the lib-fem variety of feminist - pro-porn, stripping, prostitution etc. The men I've met who've been the most feminist in how they act, not just in how they identify, would never describe themselves as such but they have proved themselves to be allies through their actions.

I used to think so but now I’m not so sure. I’ve seen so many men online and a few offline who are so usually quick to label themselves feminist and woke are so eager how to tell women to do feminism. Even when they are trying to be do gooders they do it with a massive patriarchal slant I.e. women should ultimately know their place.

I think men can have a voice and still be involved but not at the expense of women’s voices.

A feminist is someone who advocates for full social, political, personal and financial equality for women. Who puts women front and center, and considers, when planning any action or decision, whether it impacts on other women, and if so, how.

Sorry but it is not at all clear from this list why men can’t be feminists- it is clear that they may be rare and may practically exclude most, if not all men, but I can’t see anything that necessarily excludes men from being like this.

My husband has spent the last few nights polishing his enormous letter that he plans to send to every one of the 633(?) MPs in the country about his concerns about the impact on women of the proposed changes (stealth boast as I’m rather pleased with him right now. Didn’t even suggest it). He has earned ‘ally’, but also recognises that to be a feminist you probably need to have a dog in the fight. If push came to real shove, and it was his nuts on the wall, would he die on this hill? Probably not. Not sure if grades/degrees of commitment rather than political stance is what defines feminism, probably not, but just a thought. There’s something for me about ownership of the word too, and something about the value signalling and approbation men get when using the term that puts me off men self-identifying as ‘a feminist’. Still grateful for all help. As we all know, if a cock owner didn’t say it, it didn’t happen.

I think my DH is a feminist. Although he does not call himself that. He definitely believes in total equality of the sexes, and acts on his beliefs. He calls out sexism when he sees women on the receiving end of it. He reads and listens to feminist literature, podcasts etc. He stopped contributing to a feminist community because he felt uncomfortable that he might be mansplaining. I'm super-happy because we have two DDs and they get to grow up with such a great male role model. I know they won't let anyone fuck with them

I'm raising my 3 sons to be feminists.
DS1 (age 4), when asked what a feminist is, replies 'Someone who stands up for women and girls'.
I get the arguments for why men shouldn't be considered feminists, rather feminist allies, it's just that for me, it's more problematic if my boys grow up feeling feminism is something happening 'over there' rather than RIGHT HERE as something they need to be acutely aware of and be responsible for taking action on if the situation demands it.

As always, maybe the okayness of identifying himself as a feminist depends on the guy doing it, and the context? Decent, informed guy, articulately speaking out against examples of patriarchy in a roomful of misogynist blokes: ok. Overly woke self-involved tosser using the term to try and impress on a first date, not so much.

Thank you MrsTerryPratchett 💐

A feminist believes in equality between the sexes and a man can believe in that as much as a woman can.
That's my view too.

If Feminism were just another equality movement we would have disbanded when we finally won the same legal rights as men.
What good does it do to have the right to equal treatment in a society whose traditions preclude enforcement.
That is why it has been a women's liberation movement long before it was called feminism.
equality.png

Do people arguing this understand that it is the core to the creation of the pejorative TERF?
Is Feminism a political movement by, for, and about, women and only women?
Women who have seen men take over groups and movements to insist that it must serve them say yes it is and do not include men in their feminist efforts regardless of how they identify.
The response has mainly been either the 2nd rule of misogyny: Women saying no to men is a hate crime.
or the 5th rule of misogyny: Women and Feminism must be useful to men or they are worthless.

When people say equality they tend to be thinking of legal equality. Which women largely have in the UK.What feminist mean by equality is legal, financial, political, social, sexual and personal equality. Which we don’t.

But I don't see how that's really feasible, Bertrand. It just gives an unattainable goal for people to whinge evermore about not reaching.

Until men can have babies, women will always lose out on their careers or alternatively have to burden others (such as the employers who subsidise them and the childless colleagues who stay late and 'pick up the slack' once they've gone to collect little Tarquin from his piano lesson).

Similarly I dont imagine I'll be seeing equal numbers of women grafting in the warehouses I visit daily any time soon - the vast majority of those few I see are seemingly Eastern European.

Until men can have babies, women will always lose out on their careers or alternatively have to burden others (such as the employers who subsidise them and the childless colleagues who stay late and 'pick up the slack' once they've gone to collect little Tarquin from his piano lesson).

Middle Class Capitalist Bullshit.
Particularly the bit about employers subsidizing workers.

There was a female poster on here fairly recently saying that she ran a small business, despite feeling bad, wouldn't want to employ women who might leave to have a baby. People won't admit it but many feel that way.

“But I don't see how that's really feasible, Bertrand.”
Yes. Feminism is tough. Many people don’t realize that.

Women have to have the babies. They do not have to be the one to collect tarqin from his piano lesson. that is one thing that needs to change .

It just gives an unattainable goal for people to whinge evermore about not reaching.

The fact it seems unattainable just shows how far we still have to come.

Do men whinge?

The question is wrong.

It should be - can men actively fight against patriarchal structures that oppress women?

All these questions focus so much on the word feminist aka woman. Then all the debate is heaped around women. And men wanting to have a piece of the limelight.

If is the question is about being anti patriarchy, anti sexism and gender critical (and all these can disadvantage men too, mainly young boys leading them to rely on a patriarchal structure) - yes absolutely men can do this.

But a feminist herself has direct oppressive sexist experience due to her sex, which men and boys don't experience.

I have boys, I've loosely said I'm raising them to be feminist but actually I won't tell them this or use these words (apart from anything young people tend to want to reject the ideologies of the parents at some point!) but instead Focus on teaching the finer points I've detailed above, especially elements that are more pertinent to 'being a boy under the patriarchy' - eg dismantling gender stereotypes, encouraging emotional literacy, teaching about consent etc. All these things are pertinent to girls too but with a girl I'd probably focus much more on how girls are socialised to be apologetic, less competitive etc.

If that makes sense, all written with a baby attached to the boob