Shon Faye thinks the words "girl", "woman" and "she" were "invented" in the 13th century

[VickyEadie]

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/9ba1l5/this_tumblr_post_that_claims_words_like_girl_and/

And there were no languages other than English, presumably.

I'm not unused to using a bit of verbal pyrotechnics myself. I enjoy language very much in and of itself. But the joy of language is that it is such an effective tool for communication.

Sometimes a bit of flowery word decor is appropriate to get a complicated point across, other times a blunt word does all the heavy lifting.

I think some people use language to do the opposite of communicating - I think they do it to obscure the truth. So Shon is all about the 'ever shifting constellation' that they suggest a 'woman' is. Because they know full well that everyone knows what a woman is, so the silly language is meant to obscure.

When I respond with a quote from Singin' in the Rain, a 'glowing, shimmering star in the cinema firmament', I'm taking the piss out of the pretentious cobblers, and hopefully communicating that Shon's use of this 'fancy' use of language is trying to signal unearned superiority and is therefore ripe for mockery.

Red do you want history of English language type books or a full on grammar and vocab with chunks of Beowulf?

History of english language. I did some Beowulf type stuff at school, and I can't say it has left the best impression nor makes me feel inspired after all these years.

Sometimes a bit of flowery word decor is appropriate to get a complicated point across, other times a blunt word does all the heavy lifting.

I like the word 'Brick'. Brick doesn't just say something, is sounds something. Also see 'Moist' and I rather like 'Bollocks' for the same reason. The bluntness is rather wonderful.

(I hear Shon likes to search Shonself on Mumsnet - Under His Eye)

Shon likes to read out Mumsnet comments about Shon in Shon's stand up "comedy" shows. I trust Shon didn't miss the excellent description by a Mumsnetter of a "randy budgie pecking a mirror"?

Baugh and Cable's History of the English Language is the big beast. It's not inaccessible however and I think it's fascinating (or was, ). But for something lighter and shorter, Bill Bryson and Melvyn Bragg have both done good introductions (I think, respectively and from memory, Mother Tongue and Adventure of English). You won't get as much on each period but they are a quick read.

I think a really nice way of getting a sense of Old English is finding a version of a work which has the OE in one side and the modern English translation on the other.

Although Old English seems impenetrable to modern eyes, reading backwards and forwards you see the similarities. I know there is Beowulf version. There are certainly modern English translations of the poems, and the originals are readily available online. The Wanderer is a particular favourite of mine, but all the Anglo-Saxon poems we still have, are such vibrant little springs of concentrated meaning.

There is also a Gawain and the Green Knight version. Gawain is strictly speaking Middle English, but because it is from the North, it retains more of the older constructions and Norse words. It's also a ripping yarn.

Bill Bryson has a terrific series on the history of the English language - I don't know if you can get it as a podcast, but I think there is a DVD.

Bill Bryson, seems to be about the level I was after. That said the other suggestions are interesting, and I'll make a note for future reference if I want a few more. I'm fascinated by Icelandic and I know it has a lot of common features with Old English, so I might well come back round to something a bit heavier.

Thanks !

(I love MN for randomness and wisdom).

I would never carry that awful handbag.

Dance, side by side sounds a great idea. I tried that once with Dante, but sadly mediaeval Italian failed to penetrate! I dimly recall I liked the Wanderer (and the Seafarer) too, but strangely, the only one that stuck was AElfric's introduction to the translation of Genesis.

Blimey, Shon's overstepped the mark suggesting that strange shopping bag is a 'Mumsnet handbag'. Anyone dare run it past S&B?

I suspect the intention is to double-insult us with the enormous Mumsy tote/ Ursula connection...

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_(The_Little_Mermaid)

I wonder what Shon was carrying in the "Mumsnet handbag"?

Those photos aren't clear Betty. I can only see a bloke at the front. Who am I supposed to be looking for?

Bloke in front of the front where the banner is. Front equals banner?

That bag is revolting! Poor old Shon though. Subliminal desire to be a mumsnet wifman?

I've no idea what Shon thought she / ho / heo (all feminine! I like ho, can we use that?) was on about, other than proving our point about gender stereotypes being a social construct and not indicative of one's true lady brain (so,um, thanks), and I'm definitely leaving postmodernism to Lang, Yet etc. But I would like to make an entirely flippant point about heels.

Those high heels that those bewigged, beperfumed, rouged gentlemen tottered round in were wholly impracticable and impossible to walk very far in (so like now but worse). So they were only worn by people with nothing to do but pose and simper and look stunning (and possibly brave) in some very flattering portraits. they were certainly not worn by people who actually had to work at stuff (ie most of humanity). Should we suggest identifying as an ancien regime aristocrat? Wear frills (check), heels (check), long curled wig (check), make -up (check), lots of shopping (check), loads of male privilege (triple check!).

I draw the line at wearing one of those giant starchy neck ruffs that made people look like the venom spitting dinosaurs from Jurassic Park.

Maiden, woman and daughter all derive from AS. Girl is also an AS construction so probably does too. Shockingly, there are no native speakers left with whom to check.

I hope, at least, they enjoyed their erasure

Oh I'd love to see Shon take on the Style & Beauty lot with that handbag.

(all feminine! I like ho, can we use that?)

I just made the dog jump by laughing so loudly at this! Bloody creature's begging for a walk now.

Those high heels that those bewigged, beperfumed, rouged gentlemen tottered round in were wholly impracticable and impossible to walk very far in (so like now but worse). So they were only worn by people with nothing to do but pose and simper and look stunning (and possibly brave) in some very flattering portraits

Traditionally at this point someone storms the Bastille don't they?

Not sure why it's Mumsnet's fault that Shon has bad taste in bags.

Everything is Mumsnet's fault.

Because Mumsnet = Mothers= Drab, dreary, no style, no opinions. The same old Norman Bates shtik.

I wonder what Shon was carrying in the "Mumsnet handbag"?

An MN handbag surely would be defined by its contents. Those may vary according to the number and age of any children she may have, I suppose.

Tallulah

I can see Lily and Shon suggesting cake to the malodorous masses. Jane Fae would be there knitting, however...

Now I keep thinking of that Carry On film Don't Lose your Head:
"Have you ever known a lady of breeding who needed a shave?... When she kissed me just now, I distinctly felt her stubble!"