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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Shon Faye thinks the words "girl", "woman" and "she" were "invented" in the 13th century

165 replies

VickyEadie · 29/08/2018 19:09

www.reddit.com/r/GenderCritical/comments/9ba1l5/this_tumblr_post_that_claims_words_like_girl_and/

And there were no languages other than English, presumably.

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ErrolTheDragon · 30/08/2018 08:48
  • Shon is going to roll their eyes soon and tell us we've missed their point, which was a cunning dig at some conservative types who use the word 'traditional' to back up their choices.

Which we clearly didn't, as my child Jesus in a frock post says.

Shon's 'point' was, I think, that traditions change. Which is true, which is one of the reasons 'gender' is no basis for anything substantive such as legislation. Words evolve and get redefined too - so, once there was 'man, wifman, werman' where now we have 'human, woman, man'. And apparently 'knave girl' and 'gay girl' instead of boy and girl. 'Gay' is of course a word which has mutated again within my lifetime - perhaps reflecting a historical association with 'femininity'?

Yet the reality behind the words does not change. The current accepted meaning of 'woman' is still 'adult human female'. Perhaps the meaning of that word will shift, against the wishes of those to whom it currently applies. Yet there will still be adult (and child) human females who require specific rights to redress the discrimination and violence upon them which stems from their physical reality. Another convenient word would have to evolve to replace the degenerated word 'woman'.

LangCleg · 30/08/2018 08:50

But it is the essence of this that is at the heart of self-ID and which drives a lot of the gender studies tosh in the academy - it's not just Shon.

Yes. And not confined to this issue either. It's at the heart of class politics across the board. Shut out the voices of ordinary people by requiring polysyllabic pyrotechnics as a prerequisite for authoritative speech. It's what Oxbridge is for.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/08/2018 08:53

Yet the reality behind the words does not change. The current accepted meaning of 'woman' is still 'adult human female'. Perhaps the meaning of that word will shift, against the wishes of those to whom it currently applies

I'm not sure that this was Shon's point. I don't think it was merely linguistic or about tradition - I think she was actually saying that there is no 'reality' of woman - it is what 'we' decide it is (in language, law, custom, etc.). But then even as a baby undergraduate I always thought that postmodernism had a fundamentally patriarchal 'might is right' understanding of power.

FloralBunting · 30/08/2018 08:54

Lang, the alliteration in that sentence is breathtaking.

Errol, well, quite.

Alicethroughtheblackmirror · 30/08/2018 08:56

Anlaf, that's brilliant.

In the interests of full transparency, I don't actually remember any of my Anglo Saxon, but I do still have my trusty "Guide to Old English" and never leave the house without it.

Anglo Saxon has loads of fantastic words, including one for those speaking after a man's death

It doesn't have 'pregnancy' but it does have 'eacnung', so we can stop panicking about the fact that pregnancy literally didn't exist until after the French arrived.

The AS for man is wer - as in werewolf (I'm thinking wolf in sheep's clothing in the changing room...)

Maiden, woman and daughter all derive from AS. Girl is also an AS construction so probably does too. Shockingly, there are no native speakers left with whom to check.

Someone mentioned the 4 cases. After the Norman conquest, English was a lesser language - not much written etc - and it was influenced by the French. So it was simplified and grammar adapted in some aspects on French lines. We didn't actually lose the Genitive though but because personal pronoun forn is the same as Accusative, we don't think about it. So we say "her dog" and not "the dog of her". We also say "Sarah's ball" where the 's formation reflects the fact that good old Anglo Saxon genitive usually ended in es and we are missing out the e.

LangCleg · 30/08/2018 08:58

I always thought that postmodernism had a fundamentally patriarchal 'might is right' understanding of power.

Couldn't agree more. And, harnessed to the hyper-individualist postmodern religion of gender identity, power will obviously default to extant structures. Which is why Shon, an elite white XY, gets the deferential platform of acknowledged authority.

(I can do polysyllables too. But my thoughts on this are mostly monosyllabic. To whit: fuck the fuck off to the far side of fuck. Monosyllables for the win, right?!)

AngryAttackKittens · 30/08/2018 09:01

That's the funny thing, I actively make an effort not to write that way because I want people to communicate with people rather than beat them into submission on account of being too embarrassed to admit that they don't understand what I'm trying to say.

LangCleg · 30/08/2018 09:02

Lang, the alliteration in that sentence is breathtaking.

Teehee! But what is, say, the difference between Shon and Boris Johnson in terms of elite delivery of message?

LangCleg · 30/08/2018 09:03

I want people to communicate with people rather than beat them into submission on account of being too embarrassed to admit that they don't understand what I'm trying to say.

Depends on whether or not it's in your interests for people to actually understand what you're trying to say!

AngryAttackKittens · 30/08/2018 09:05

There is that, yeah. Though hey, not editing almost made that sentence read like something someone in love with "theory" might produce!

Iused2BanOptimist · 30/08/2018 09:05

Alas I have nothing clever to add to language discussions but visited Petworth House a couple of days ago which has a huge art collection. I was much taken with these shoes and garters and imagining DH tottering about in them. I assume the stockings were silk. Wonder if they shaved their legs for a better fit?

Shon Faye thinks the words "girl", "woman" and "she" were "invented" in the 13th century
Shon Faye thinks the words "girl", "woman" and "she" were "invented" in the 13th century
AngryAttackKittens · 30/08/2018 09:06

Boris is more likeable and persuasive.

(That may be the most unkind thing I've ever written on MN.)

LangCleg · 30/08/2018 09:09

AAK! Boris makes my skin crawl, so I'm not cosigning! But there is no difference, is there? Dazzle the audience with verbal pyrotechnics. That's it.

JellySlice · 30/08/2018 09:17

If it doesn't have a name, does it even exist?

Isn't that what Shon Enjoy Your Erasure Faye is trying to achieve?

Ereshkigal · 30/08/2018 09:22

(I can do polysyllables too. But my thoughts on this are mostly monosyllabic. To whit: fuck the fuck off to the far side of fuck. Monosyllables for the win, right?!)

Indeed!

BettyDuMonde · 30/08/2018 09:22

Shon’s not very keen on anything woman-related (bar the accoutrements) so trying to rewrite definitions to make them more ‘inclusive’ is likely the only way he can bring himself to ‘identify’ with us...

JellySlice · 30/08/2018 09:24

Jealousy - Shon never got that card and never will.

Ereshkigal · 30/08/2018 09:25

Yup.

littlbrowndog · 30/08/2018 09:25

I just think shon jealous cos shon knows shon can never be what we are

BettyDuMonde · 30/08/2018 09:33

This reply has been deleted

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YetAnotherSpartacus · 30/08/2018 09:33

I just think shon jealous cos shon knows shon can never be what we are

My feeling about many TRAs who I have had the misfortune to cross paths with us is that they want to usurp us rather than be us - they want to take what we have, disempower us and eroticise our bodies (and take those bits they like), but also keep their penises and in pomo language 'the power of the phallus'.

See the AIBU thread re men and pensises where I have posted on 'shecocks' - sites devoted to men in porn poses with breast enhancements, feminine facialisation surgery and dicks - mostly erect.

BettyDuMonde · 30/08/2018 09:35

(I hear Shon likes to search Shonself on Mumsnet - Under His Eye)

Shon Faye thinks the words "girl", "woman" and "she" were "invented" in the 13th century
RedToothBrush · 30/08/2018 09:37

Can anyone recommend me a good (easy read) book on old English?

(serious request)

littlbrowndog · 30/08/2018 09:40

Ooh yes YET. Another Spartacus

Omg how disordered is that

LangCleg · 30/08/2018 09:53

There are a few online courses, Red. How about one of those?

weblearn.ox.ac.uk/portal/site/:info:showcase:old_englis/tool/d9dc60c8-a209-44bc-92b8-c9956fba555c/main

ealdaenglisc.wordpress.com/old-english-lessons/

This book is properly entry level so you might want something better:

www.amazon.co.uk/Learn-English-Leofwin-Matt-Love/dp/189828167X?tag=mumsnetforum-21