should young girls go to prison for "false rape claims"

[traceyracer]

nypost.com/2018/06/05/former-college-student-who-claimed-rape-admits-it-was-all-lies/

Won't sending her to prison make it harder for the real victims to come forward?

And what if she's mentally ill and needs help rather than criminal-minded?

History of the alleged perpetrator is inadmissible but history of the alleged victim is admissible and often milked in order to create a misleading impression based on implicit misogynist cultural narratives.

How young a girl do you think should be incarcerated for bearing false witness, OP?

A made up rape accusation can destroy someone’s life as much as a rapist can destroy their victims

Have you evidence of this?

If I remember correctly, the "Civil Cases" had all been through a trial in a Criminal Court but were not proved beyond reasonable. But neither had the accused been found "Not Guilty". Instead, the jurors felt that the prosecution case had "not proven" guilt.

The "not proven" bit may have referred to a number of things - questions about forensic evidence, or failures to disclose evidence, or the way the police handled this, that or the other . ie Don't assume that jurors doubted the witness.

In those rare and exceptional circumstances (that can only happen in Scotland), a civil case was very likely to succeed.

I wouldn't consider the cases to be a precedent for suing rapists in the civil courts.

Perhaps there needs to be a 'not proven' verdict, (as I believe there is in other countries) that can be made public, so that people can tell the difference between unclear evidence and genuinely found to be innocent

Scotland has a "not proven" verdict. There are historic reasons for it - traditionally the options were "proven" and "not proven". Not guilty appeared in the mid 1700s. I'm not sure there is much merit in "not proven" , given the general uncertainty over what it means.

Courts , certainly in the UK, do not find any accused "genuinely innocent". To be found guilty the court must determine the case has been proved beyond all reasonable doubt as opposed to the civil test of proving a case on a balance of probability.

In those rare and exceptional circumstances (that can only happen in Scotland), a civil case was very likely to succeed

That is not correct. It is possible in most jurisdictions to bring a civil case for damages, and win , on a balance of probability despite a criminal court having returned a not guilty verdict. The "not proven" verdict has no bearing on this.

Have you evidence of this?

A very quick search turned up these people:
Jay Cheshire
Ross Bullock
Thomas Klocke

All committed suicide after they were falsely accused of rape. If you don't consider that sufficiently life destroying, Jay Cheshire's mother also committed suicide after her son's untimely death.

Are you playing oppression olympics? Do you have the list of girls who committed suicide after being raped?

Not at all. The harm caused by false rape accusations does not in any way diminish the harm caused by rape.

People making false allegations (as in, those who do so maliciously, I'm not talking about individuals who make factual accusations which tragically lack sufficient evidence to secure a conviction, these are in no way comparable) are brutally and callously undermining the credibility of actual victims. It's a very small number but it's absolutely poisonous to people who are rightly seeking justice.

I'm unclear on how this could possibly constitute 'oppression olympics'. I was responding to a message questioning how a made up accusation could cause harm. If I've misunderstood, could you please explain?

The question was whether young girls should go to prison for false rape allegations.
This raises a number of questions.
Why young girls?
Why rape?
I understand that an innocent person is harmed by false accusations of a crime. Some people never recover their equilibrium after a violent crime investigation, even when they are not found guilty.
Suicide is the leading cause of death among people 10 to 32 in the UK.
So, my question when this issue of punishing young girls for bearing false witness comes up which it does repeatedly on Feminist boards is why the narrow focus on young girls and rape?

As mentioned by a PP, this is already covered under "perverting the course of justice"--there is no special need for a special law just for rape accusations, but yes, if there is really clear evidence of a fake claim/conspiracy then criminal charges should be brought.

I think it goes without saying that the barrier to bringing such a conviction needs to be quite high, though, as rape is a very hard crime to prove. There needs to be a strong case proving that the claim was maliciously meant and deliberate.

This thread is about something that happens so rarely that it's not worth mentioning.

There are all sorts of crimes that are statistically very rare, doesn't mean we can't talk about them.

There are all sorts of crimes that are statistically very rare, doesn't mean we can't talk about them.

But we don't, do we? We talk about this constantly. And I can't actually fathom a non-misogynistic reason why it comes up all the time.

If it gets proven that she lied or she confesses to lying about being raped, I think she should get some kind of prison sentence yes.

Think about it like this, she could ruin an innocent man, his whole life and reputation. He could lose his family, friends and effect his career. It also effects how rape cases are taken seriously and false claims use up resources that could be used for a real rape case. Also a prison sentence could stop others from doing the same thing, a deterrent in a sense.

If it's not proven she lied or confesses to lying, then that's another ball game. Either there's sufficient evidence or there isn't. Just because a man gets found innocent based on a lack of evidence, doesn't mean he's innocent. Same visa versa where there could be evidence due to consensual sex but there was no rape committed.

Think if a woman or man lies about being raped, you've also got to look at reasons behind it also. If it was solely to be malicious than you have to suggest there has to be some kind of mental illness surely? I just don't understand how someone could lie about a thing like that so maybe that's why I assume some kind of illness would be involved.

All committed suicide after they were falsely accused of rape

Jay cheshire - allegation withdrawn, no evidence im aware that it was a false accusation

Ross Bulloch - police found no case to answer...woman not charged...no evidence im aware of that it was DEFINITELY false

Thomas klocke- no evidence that classmate was lying

I am more than happy to agree that the stress of being accused led to those mens deaths and its a very great shame that they felt it was the only way out

I am also happy to agree that there MIGHT have been false accusations

But out of those three two without question are no where near being a criminal conviction

And as far as i can see no evidence as to the second

Sorry im going out now so wont be able to make any comments for a little while

Very tragic cases, especially the first one with the mother

Devastating for the families concerned

(And obviously the family of the accusers who seemto be getting the blame for their deaths... )

ruin an innocent man, his whole life and reputation. He could lose his family, friends and effect his career

I'm not saying this isn't true. But although I hear it claimed a lot I have never seen any evidence of it. The men I know in rl who are 'known' to have engaged in sexually abusive behaviour toward female juniors etc seem professionally and socially untouchable. Do people really lose families, careers etc over false allegations?

Only if there is evidence that they 100% lied and were malicious.

Ie: phone messages from the victim stating she did it to frame him, maybe she described a tattoo and it was not there, perhaps there was a witness which shows the victim was willing.

Of course all of the above reasons are all muddied if the woman is extremely intoxicated.

It's a hard question especially if you are the victim of a false accusation.

My family were devastated when I was 10 and my best friend made a false claim about my dad. It was horrific. The charges were dropped but I was old enough to know what happened and my mum had to explain things to me that I really shouldn't of know at that age. The worse thing was as my dad was arrested based on these charges, it was in the paper, all the parents in my school knew, all my parents so called friends knew and so many friends turned their backs on us. My dad and mum (as she worked with children) were pulled out of work.
We spent months of worry not knowing what was going to happen.

It turned out this girls mum had made her make the false accusations, she was mentally unstable and had lots of issues. At the age of 10 it had a massive impact on me and my family and on a personal level I lost my best friend that would do everything with me.

I wouldn't of wanted her to go to jail, but yes I wish her mum was punished for the false claims

Also, what about the (non-rapist) men? A man is much more likely to be raped than he is to be the subject of a false rape allegation, so the innocent majority of men are another demographic who would be disadvantaged by a punitive response to making an allegation. The only group who benefit are the rapists.

biscuittime

@Gronky

I've never heard of those other two men but Jay Cheshire had a long history of depression and poor mental health even prior to being accused.

We also don't know for sure that the accusation against him was false. All we know is that he was accused of rape but the girl withdrew her claim a few weeks later and he later committed suicide. That's pretty much all we know. We don't know why the girl withdrew her claim, we don't know whether she was lying or telling the truth and we certainly don't know why Jay Cheshire killed himself. For all we know his suicide might have had nothing or very little to do with the rape accusation and he may well have committed suicide regardless considering his prior history.

I wish people would just let him and his mother rest in peace tbh. Jay is no longer around to defend himself and the girl who accused him is certainly unable to defend herself publicly and share her side of the story. Two people are dead here and speculating is just crass and inappropriate.

@weilbald no they're not. A false claim is a separate crime and a separate trail to rape.

I think that false accusations of serious crimes should be treated a civil claims in court only (defamation, libel). The potential awards of damages should be unlimited (as the are due to the equitable nurture of tort) and should be as punatuvely high and should not be tied into the affordability to the defendant but purely the damage done to the claimants reputation and a bit more to be punatuvely if necessary. There is absolutely no reason to lick people up for false accusations of rape (or any crime) because they do not pose a material threat to the public so there is no need to segregate them. They do cause real harm but that harm can absolutely be quantified and justice would be better served by punishing false accusers with huge payments of damages whilst compensating victims with the same.

If there is clear evidence, eg from phone records etc that they lied then they should get a fine and a suspended sentence. I don’t think locking them up is the answer.

They have wrecked someone’s life. Unfortunately as it stands now they can go on to repeat offend.

Yes, to the original op, only if its beyond doubt she has told a pack of lies.

I've just had a Google and was that text message the only evidence that Ross Bullock was being falsely accused? Because people do realise it's not unusual in date rape and acquaintance rape cases for the victim to be in shock afterwards and try to carry on as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened, right? So the fact that she sent him a text afterwards doesn't really prove much tbh.

Also is she currently being investigated for making a false claim or have they already investigated her and come up with nothing? Either way, people need to be careful as she hasn't actually been charged with anything yet. Innocent until proven guilty and all that....