Edinburgh University to hand out pronoun badges

[BiologyIsReal]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2018/08/25/edinburgh-university-student-union-officials-hand-pronounbadges/

I will break every rule in MN's be nice to trans policy if I even make a comment.

One can see Lass' point.

I'm not bothered about pronouns but I require everyone to refer to me as a person, not... whatever the singular of "folks" is (a folk?! A fellow?)

Sorry for slightly off-topic rant but there is something about the word "folks" that is so fake jolly kum-ba-yah it makes me get the rage! It only seems to be used in relation to trans "folk" or am I missing something?

That article isn't very well-written for the Telegraph. Also, Edinburgh very specifically has a student association, not union.

There are gender neutral loos in several of the EUSA buildings, but as far as I know, not really in departments.

I think it's mostly coming from the central campus and the arts/humanities — the science students are in lectures and labs for much longer and don't have time for all this!

I've never posted on this issue before, but I am an academic at Edinburgh university and this is a little bit of a problem for me. My course is a postgraduate, popular with international students who often have (very good) English as a second language. Our forum, where you're meant to be all friendly and introduce yourself, has only one pronoun zealot, and yet none of the international students are daring to speak, that one person has killed it dead. For all the language around it being inclusive, I haven't seen a welcome like this that instantly isolates people not from the UK (or perhaps Canada, Ireland etc with a similar thing going on).

It is hard enough that we have to worry about getting it wrong, but imagine if you were in an English speaking country for the first time and were instantly faced with this. I'm having trouble advising on this as our department still has a general policy based on the premise that it is a very rare, sad thing for a person to be dysphoric and being kind to them is the right approach.

Other than bulk buying Adrian Mole as a welcome gift.... has anyone else found a good way to explain this to someone from a totally different culture, with different language, without sounding critical about the trans/non-binary person and losing your job!

What he said

Wrong photo! This one

Other than bulk buying Adrian Mole as a welcome gift.... has anyone else found a good way to explain this to someone from a totally different culture, with different language, without sounding critical about the trans/non-binary person and losing your job!

Oh, I would hope that the overseas students will demand that everyone respect their identity by using the pronouns of their home language. I'd love to see the narcissistic pronoun fascists deal with that one!

Sorry, not much help with your actual dilemma, I know. I also work in a university and am sick of this shit.

LetsSplashMummy - in an international forum, any sort of language pedantry is likely to be problematic, to the point of being effectively racist (even if not deliberately so). Given that TRAs seem very fond of banging the intersectional drum, you'd hope they could have a modicum of consideration for people of other nationalities.

There really does need to be a distinction made (as MN tries to) between accidental and deliberate, persistent 'misgendering'.

I'm returning to university (not Edinburgh though) this October after a break to have DD, I am absolutely dreading having to come up against this shite, the fact I will have to bite my tongue and play along or risk losing my place for being 'transphobic' is making me pretty angry. All this gender stuff was only just becoming a thing when I left and it wasn't policed, I fear it will be a very different situation now.

I went to an earnest, actually slightly dull, event at the weekend. Nice people, so was happy to answer the professionally run survey as I left, to give some helpful suggestions. Quite long so was relieved to reach the demographic section at the end. A whole page of every possible kind of gender variation - many of which I couldn’t quite work out - and right, right down at the bottom, male and female. The interviewer and I silently exchanged expressions of ‘wtf’ and ‘I’ve got two more hours of this - thank you for not verbalising your exasperation and I agree’

I remain baffled how a section of the population amounting to the square root of fuck all, can apparently hold such sway over normal sensible people.

It seems particularly bad in the public sector but now I understand the private sector is losing its collective marbles over it as well.

I have always had such sympathy and support for transsexuals but these million variations of gender impostors can clear off to the MRA camp where they belong. They are doing immense damage to transsexuals who don't deserve this lunacy.

If you're from some parts of the American rural South, "folks" is acceptable. If not it makes you sound like a prat.

Marginally less of a prat than banging on about how refusal to adhere to your weekly pronoun changes is literal violence does, though.

MNHQ use "folks" to address us. Gets my hackles up every time. I used to think that's because it reminded me of characters from The Faraway Tree and was therefore infantilising and twee. Now I know it's a gendercrap thing it annoys me even more

Someone asked about Edinburgh SU's toilets - I was in recently during the Fringe. They do have inclusive/everyone can use them toilets in some buildings already but they are completely enclosed separate cubicles. There were a lot of confused men in the queue for the toilets!

One of Glasgow Uni's buildings has three grounds. At the bottom by the doctors' surgery there is one disabled cabin (okay), at the top there are female, male, and disabled toilets (okay). On the middle ground, the toilets are for men and for everybody (not okay). Presumably that's a converted female toilet. The cubicles are separate, but the sinks are shared.

If you're from some parts of the American rural South, "folks" is acceptable.

Not just rural. I have lived in several cities in the Southern US. "Folks" is standard in quite a few contexts.

Ok, I have pm-ed the difficult student about remembering that other people are talking in a second language and to be kind and welcoming to students from overseas. I know it sounds naive but I hadn't really thought it affected anyone other than the people themselves, in their bubble, and everything in the real world carried on, yet in the last 2 weeks its in a number of areas of my life.

I need to moderate the forum, the conversation goes like this (I've obviously made changes and don't want the course too obvious):

"Hi, I'm Isabella from Brazil, I've been working on Rainforest conservation for the last three years and am looking forward to learning about X."
"Hi, I am Jasmine from China, I have a job with Amnesty,
I work and study on human rights, I look forward to the course with Professor X and what she thinks about Y."
"Hi, just to remind you not to "she," unless you know it's their preferred pronoun - it's important nobody feels judged."

....tumbleweed....

I am going to say that now is the chance to establish pronouns, if it is important to you, so we can continue the conversation in a respectful manner. I will then say that no staff member in the department has any gender issues and not to worry about it, we're just pleased if you already know our work. Tomorrow, I will change the topic completely and ask the previous students about their posts.

• Professor X thinks it reads like she herself is a trans-woman, I don't need to correct that, I don't think.

That's not offensive in any way, is it? I've been slightly blindsided by this and I'm glad that there is a place to discuss it sensibly, thank you.

I think this is fascinating, LetsSplashMummy. More because I realise you might not be identifying China specifically but Mandarin notionally had gender-neutral pronouns and relied upon context to sort it out (if necessary).

I can grasp why that is a conversation killer. I also think it's important not to allow it to be a conversation killer. Tricky.

Good point, arran (though from my spectacularly unsuccessful attempt to learn Mandarin, I seem to recall that the written characters are different).

"Hi, just to remind you not to "she," unless you know it's their preferred pronoun - it's important nobody feels judged."

Urgh. This sort of thing can really upset a group dynamic. Before the course has started, that person has publicly asserted their perceived superiority to other students. It would be tempting just to delete the post, though I can see why you might not want to. And if I was Professor X I’d be bloody pissed off that someone took it upon themself to make this comment, apparently on my behalf.

Urgh. Sympathy, LetsSplashMummy - I was a post grad at Edinburgh and everyone else on my course was an international student. It was hard enough just to communicate well in person then, and that's with me being a language nerd.

There are languages that have well-used neutral pronouns - Finnish is one, and the culture is so laid-back, I'm told, that nobody bats an eyelid at being referred to as "it". This whole pronouns thing is such first-world, anglocentric bollocks

from my spectacularly unsuccessful attempt to learn Mandarin, I seem to recall that the written characters are different

I have family members who had to learn Mandarin - apparently, the pictogram thing became such a pain it is now commonly expressed for all purposes as the pinyin "ta".

I can't think where but a while ago I read something by a linguist who was explaining why eye-wateringly smart and educated Chinese people are sometimes misread as not as intelligent as they are because of 'incorrect' use of gendered pronouns in English.

I like the term folks! Feels friendly.

Fplld, the BBQ already, feels so much more likely than folks, we're gonna kill you!

Back on page one LinoleumBlownapart said of naval gazing...

'My guess is humans are becoming more self obsessed as a way of wiping ourselves out and saving the planet.'

This has occurred to me too!

Italian

I respect you and I respect your liking of the term "folks".

Folks, the BBQ isvreadu, of course!

arranfan That's amazing that some Chinese organisations would use 'ta' rather than come up with a neutral character for he or she.

It is s bit like our word 'cousin' in that it's abouy the only family member, a long with baby, where the sex is not included on the name word.