Confused, none feminist, feminist

[Onthebrink87]

I've been considering writing this post for a while but petrified to be told I'm stupid and a lost cause - still unsure if I'll be tapping the post button just yet!

I've always quietly considered myself as a feminist as i believe in equality. I also believe most misogynistic men are generally frightened of powerful women and they are made to feel redundant...
However, after lots of time lurking on the feminist threads it's been really eye opening and I feel like a fool! I've always though (and please go easy) people have the right to be who they want to be etc live and let live with regards to all walks of life including trans. Ignorant I may well be (am) and always thought 'some women also identify as men and No one makes a huge fuss' PLEASE understand I'm being honest about my previous stand point and have changed this drastically. I now think to myself often, would a man really ever accept someone as a man if they weren't born as such? And the answer is no it seems. I genuinely don't think I know a single man that truly would. So why is it absolutely fine to completely dilute what a woman IS? What really started to make me feel uncomfortable was the idea of someone like Ian Huntley self IDing and wanting to be put in a female prison. This alone bro vs the dumbest and most ignorant of us realise just how dangerous this whole mess could get.

Now I dont know a thing about correct terminology or anything really. Truly dumb and really green. I want to learn and I want to be part of helping to educate others and make changes. What's stopping me is I honestly fond some strong feminist terrifying and that often scares me away and not want to ask questions enabling me to learn. Is there anywhere that's a good place to start?

I think I'm going to post and I hope I dont regret it 🙈

There's a wonderful post on here called, I think "Break It Down for me" which covers a lot of ground very quickly.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I have to warn you - you speak about being a little scared of strong feminists. The more you learn, and read, and ask questions and form your own opinions, the stronger a feminist you will be. You'll be one of the scary people. Because once you know it, you just CAN'T un-know it, and you can't forget it at all.

Brace yourself

x

Don't be scared of asking genuine questions.

In answer to some of your specific points, here is my own opinion:
I've always though (and please go easy) people have the right to be who they want to be etc live and let live with regards to all walks of life including trans.

Genuinely, I think most posters on this board have started with this exact philosophy. And actually still believe this. Many will basically agree that you can call yourself whatever you like, wear whatever you like, etc, and must be treated with respect/dignity. However, just as a religious Christian cannot make someone else believe in Jesus, neither can a trans activist make others believe that a trans person has actually changed their biological sex. This is the crux of the argument. So I personally will never believe that trans women are actually women, because I define womanhood by biological sex. They can be trans women. But they are distinct from not actual women (females). Because sex changes are impossible.

I now think to myself often, would a man really ever accept someone as a man if they weren't born as such? And the answer is no it seems. I genuinely don't think I know a single man that truly would. So why is it absolutely fine to completely dilute what a woman IS?

Absolutely, an excellent point. This underlines the misogyny in the whole trans activist movement. You will notice that it's always "woman" and "female" that gets re-defined. And women's biology that gets silenced. For example, it is fine to talk about "lady penises" but vaginas are being re-named "front holes."

What really started to make me feel uncomfortable was the idea of someone like Ian Huntley self IDing and wanting to be put in a female prison. This alone bro vs the dumbest and most ignorant of us realise just how dangerous this whole mess could get.

Yes. The point is NOT that anyone thinks trans women (biological males who say they are women) are rapists. AT ALL. The point is that the trans activist ideology allows basically any man to say he is a woman, and he cannot be questioned. They are falsely claiming to be trans in order to exploit the system! Which means that Ian Huntley, or people like him, could self-identify as a woman and theoretically be transferred. We have had male rapists in women's prisons.
The other question is what to do when these offenders are released. Do they get free access to women's spaces?

Is there anywhere that's a good place to start?

I am going to plug this link, as it covers a lot of ground for newbies:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3335962-Frequently-Asked-Questions-FAQs-I-have-noticed-here

There's nothing foolish about realising there is more to an issue than you thought and that discovery changing the way you think.

As someone I worked with once said: keep and open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out.

A level of confusion, uncertainty and frustration is to be expected when you're learning something new. So read, consider, ask for clarification, test against your own experience and values. Challenge yourself and challenge others.

And welcome aboard. There are no perfect feminists, we are all works in progress.

This was me a couple of years ago. The discomfort with transgenderism is fundamental to an understanding of feminism, I think.

And I would say that you may need to take it on the chin a bit form 'strong feminists'. They are kick ass because they are really truly, properly assertive. And so many of us women have not yet learned to be

In relation to that second point. I used to be on AIBU a lot and a few feminist voices would appear, and I'd think - why can't you be a bit more polite, a bit 'nicer'. Well now I disdain 'nice', If it means unthinkingly allowing others to speak for us, or over us, or just not thinking. Men tell us to be nice.

Now't wrong with being strong OP. It's a hell of a lot better than the opposite.

Also, in writing on here, comments that are merely forthright and/or direct can sometimes come over as snippy.

I was on exactly the same page. I was live and let live and I wanted everyone to be able to express themselves in a way that made them comfortable (within reason!). Actually, I still do!

Then I saw Jenner getting woman of the year and reducing womanhood to choosing clothes and I saw Bergdorf telling women that biology was exclusionary when women are still being raped, mutilated, denied abortion etc because of biology. I still tried to believe this wasn't representative.

Anyway, I stated lurking here in March and I've been on what Owen Jones would no doubt consider the fast-track radicalisation programme ever since!

Omg I was so scared to read the replies, but can I just say you are fucking wonderful women! I feel even more foolish now! And its so reassuring to know I'm not a complete wet flannel.

I often thought a trans person should be allowed to outwardly express themselves as they like as long as it was doing any harm. Wear what you want, call yourself what you like etc but no way can you biologically change your gender biologically - low and behold I was worried about my own opinion because of upsetting people....
Then I was just like hang on, men don't worry about upsetting people, trans women claiming to have periods don't worry about upsetting women like myself who have long suffered with endo/pcos and general FEMININE PAIN! And then it hit me in the face, of course I'm frightened to upset people, women are supposed to be warm and fuzzy and beautifully embellished because you know.... society

Thank you all so much! I think if I spoke my mind completely freely I am in fact a lot more militant about feminism than I first thought!

Onthebrink87

Read the 'break it down' link. Explains a lot. Although some of the terms are now out of date, as they have been forbidden on here by MNHQ.

It's been noted, several times, that one characteristic of feminists challenging the trans ideology, is that it produces more feminists.

So here, take this . You're going to need it.

And welcome!

Oh and clarification on an issues from my own experience would be helpful..

I was chatting with someone about men feeling entitled to touch women when they want. The first time this happened to me I was 13 and on a bus, leery oldish man scooched over and put his hand on my inner thigh - I smacked his hand away. I have always since done this in a 'like for like' way ie a hand rested on my shoulder will be swiftly brushed off escalating to having my crotch grabbed resulting in my knee in his (I'm only 31 but way too many to list individually) and was told I was far too aggressive! I personally think if your going to invade my space or outright assault me you lose the right to cry about getting the same in return.

Can anyone reassure me that I'm right and not deserving of an ASBO?!

take this wine. You're going to need it.

Yes. And as someone said earlier, once you know this stuff, you can't UN-know it.

In relation to that second point. I used to be on AIBU a lot and a few feminist voices would appear, and I'd think - why can't you be a bit more polite, a bit 'nicer'.

Am laughing at myself a fair bit here because I perceive this board to be sensible and welcoming, and the rest of MN terrifyingly rude - I rarely venture anywhere else. Bruising from early "mummy wars", I think.

OP, you'll be fine here, just take the time to read the threads you've been signposted to - it makes a big difference and you'll find a lot of your questions can be answered quickly without having to post threads.

Welcome OP.

I was you about 2 months ago. I feel like I was sleepwalking while many on here (and elsewhere) were campaigning on my behalf.

I couldn't ignore it. As I read more on MN I grew increasingly alarmed.

When I ventured on to Twitter my jaw dropped (Twitter may be a bubble, but it also exposed people in power tweeting vile tweets or agreeing with trans activists; women being doxxed and threatened; people like Dr Harrop leading the charge against women; big organisations agreeing with TRAs and Twitter itself shutting down women and allowing abusive anti women and paedophilic posts to remain).

I feel guilty I left it so long but now I am fighting. This is absolutely the single most important issue I've cared for in 45 years.

I often make stupid mistakes in my posts, yet there's patience and sound advice and support.

It's good to have you here.

And its so reassuring to know I'm not a complete wet flannel.

You're not a wet flannel!

It's been, very deliberately, made difficult for women to have safe spaces to explore their feelings and discomforts about this. It's played on our female socialisation and it's been very effective.

So again: you're not a wet flannel!

You've defied that female socialisation and, now you have, you are free to explore your views and opinions with other women. We're not a monolith hereabouts so you don't have any groupthink you have to adhere to. Just being pro-woman is enough for us!

I feel guilty I left it so long but now I am fighting. This is absolutely the single most important issue I've cared for in 45 years.

This. I've seen TRAs moaning that most of the FWR board is taken up with this issue - that's because it encompasses all that feminism actually IS.

I often thought a trans person should be allowed to outwardly express themselves as they like as long as it was doing any harm. Wear what you want, call yourself what you like etc but no way can you biologically change your gender biologically - low and behold I was worried about my own opinion because of upsetting people....

You will find very few people here who'll disagree with those sentiments. Except for one thing. Understanding what is going on works far better if you keep clear in your head the difference between sex and gender. Sex is biology, it's unchangeable. Gender is the expectations put on people of the male sex or the female sex. It's about boys having to like blue, and girls pink, boys' toys vs girls' toys, some activities and jobs being for one sex and not the other. Gender is about how society views sex. And often is used as a way of putting women in their place.

And i can see me getting very very dedicated to learning, 2 mins in to the first link and boom

HSTS and AGP no wonder I was happily skipping in the meadows spreading my fairy dust! I always thought trans was just HSTS and wouldn't that be wonderful! The latter to me sounds like something that you would expect to happen in late night clubs, fully regulated and only amongst like minded consenting people! It makes me picture old white males wearing rubber masks and maids outfits

There's a chance that in the future I could be the angriest feminist of all!

Sounds like you are far from a wet flannel with your 'like for like' repulses to unwanted invasions of your personal space. A great response to such intrusions.

Thank you nauticant, that actually makes a lot of order in my very scrambled brain!

Och don’t worry. Am on here and I don’t even have the tertiary

LANG 😂😂

I quite enjoy not being nice. And by 'not being nice' I mean 'being slightly less assertive than the average man'.

I think feminists sometimes seem a bit scary because what we're saying seems counterintuitive to people who are used to accepting social norms. So if we speak out against those norms it sounds 'extreme', whether we're talking about pubic shaving or about porn. Even asking questions is 'extreme', which is why we're disproportionately targeted by some trans rights activists.

And it's disorienting to be asked to reconsider something that seems 'normal', like wearing makeup or hoping a man will propose (random examples but you might have your own). And then feminists disagree about these things too, which is confusing.

But one thing I've noticed is that most feminists are very welcoming to women with genuine questions about feminism and women's lives. So I think you'll fit right in!

This might be off topic but I consider myself a new radical femenist too and I'm struggling.

The thing Im finding hardest is putting women at the forefront of my femenism - I was very much in the camp that we should all live as we please, no harm in strip clubs etc. But actually I've come to a point where I think you have to weigh up the right of the individual and the harm that does to women as a class.

For example - Do I want a boob job - yes! But why? Because socialisation has taught me that women should be pert and pretty or invisible. But by buying into that and getting work done, I'd be perpetuating the myth that we dont age, that I should conform to earn my place in the world. I don't want to do that.

Same with the trans debate, sometimes my head screams 'youre not being nice!!' but it's not that. Its not that I don't want transpeople to be safe and happy, I DO. But women are front and centre of my concern, transpeople ate not, and that doesn't sit comfortably.

Ive tried to discuss things with bright , strong female friends but so far, conversations have been cut short because we all have to be nice and we mustn't disagree, must we?

It's exhausting and lonely sometimes.

Am on here and I don’t even have the tertiary

I fucking love you, Dog. Please never change.