Confused, none feminist, feminist

[Onthebrink87]

I've been considering writing this post for a while but petrified to be told I'm stupid and a lost cause - still unsure if I'll be tapping the post button just yet!

I've always quietly considered myself as a feminist as i believe in equality. I also believe most misogynistic men are generally frightened of powerful women and they are made to feel redundant...
However, after lots of time lurking on the feminist threads it's been really eye opening and I feel like a fool! I've always though (and please go easy) people have the right to be who they want to be etc live and let live with regards to all walks of life including trans. Ignorant I may well be (am) and always thought 'some women also identify as men and No one makes a huge fuss' PLEASE understand I'm being honest about my previous stand point and have changed this drastically. I now think to myself often, would a man really ever accept someone as a man if they weren't born as such? And the answer is no it seems. I genuinely don't think I know a single man that truly would. So why is it absolutely fine to completely dilute what a woman IS? What really started to make me feel uncomfortable was the idea of someone like Ian Huntley self IDing and wanting to be put in a female prison. This alone bro vs the dumbest and most ignorant of us realise just how dangerous this whole mess could get.

Now I dont know a thing about correct terminology or anything really. Truly dumb and really green. I want to learn and I want to be part of helping to educate others and make changes. What's stopping me is I honestly fond some strong feminist terrifying and that often scares me away and not want to ask questions enabling me to learn. Is there anywhere that's a good place to start?

I think I'm going to post and I hope I dont regret it 🙈

It may also help if i learned to spell feminist.

silentcrow

I'm talking a while ago. AIBU is now feral and there are a lot of trolls. Also idiots. What I love about FWR is that thinking doesn't get called 'overthinking', no-one ever accuses you or pearl clutching or tells you to get a grip

LastOne

Oh me too. I have had interesting times talking to friends about feminism.
Ive tried to discuss things with bright , strong female friends but so far, conversations have been cut short because we all have to be nice and we mustn't disagree, must we?

Yes, I think they think I've become strident. I haven't though. I am just expressing myself more, and becoming more certain of my opinions and caring less of what people think of me

Speaking of AIBU, in this thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3340870-To-think-that-this-massive-women-s-rights-issue-is-going-under-the-radar-As-it-s-being-hidden-from-them

the majority of voices, by some distance, are coming at things from a gender critical direction. Not so long ago there would be definite "trans ally" constituency telling people off for being "mean" but for some reason it wasn't in that thread. I'm wondering if that might reflect a shift in viewpoint on MN.

This thread reminds me of counselling.
When I started, my counsellor told me that there was a risk that I might lose some relationships, as some people couldn't adapt to the new me.
I realise now she sugar coated it. If she had said at the beginning 'you're a doormat and the people who use you will protest then fuck off'' I might have been indignant, or put off

So the way I see it now is the radical feminists are the ones who have been through the process and come out the other side. They've faced reality and they don't have to sugar coat it.

I'm not a longtime poster on here, either, and this board and the amazing people who use it have been the education of a lifetime.

Whatever you do, keep to the MN rules. Read their pinned post at the top of this board. Rules are different on here than for other boards on MN. Not everyone on here is a friend and ally. Welcome to the minefield.

This is always a good video to watch - make a cuppa and have a looksie.

Incidentally, feminism isn't about equality.

Equality would be women killing 2-3 men a week.

What we want is freedom from men killing women in the first place.

Transplants - yes, and I feel strident when I'm trying to discuss things! Or as if I'm being argumentative or something.

Because it must be right to let everyone trample all over women live as they please, right?

And sometimes it makes me so frustrated that they can't see what I can plainly see. And that in turn makes me question if I'm wrong.

I think I transpeaked my friend on Monday.

I told her the statistics about reassignment surgery and that under the new legistlation, she could be changing in the swimming room behind a thin curtain whilst a man who claims to be trans under self ID is in the next curtained off cubicle. She said she would complain. I said the law in Scotland says he has a perfect right to be there.

She just stood there looking at me with a dazed expression for about 40 seconds before she went ".........what? how the fuck.....?....."

I took her for a drink after that. She's since been in touch and asked me for more information.

Transplants

What I love about FWR is that thinking doesn't get called 'overthinking', no-one ever accuses you or pearl clutching or tells you to get a grip

Wholly agree. I have a tendancy to overthink/disaster plan, along with a massive reading habit and "too much" education. It's a pleasure to speak my mind amongst women who are able to listen, follow the train of thought and comment intelligently when disagreeing rather than being shouted down. Or even just being afraid of being shouted down, which has lessened as I've got older and more assertive.

But are we "oversensitive"? I get that, a lot, because I have sodding leaky eyes and a soft heart. So I'm dismissed as "oversensitive". The same person also calls me a "ballbreaker" and "bossy" or "angry".

I can't win, can I?

Thank you IncrediblySturdyPajamas she is wonderful!

And has confirmed that I am, indeed, radical.

Great video "Sturdy"

Yep, I'm radical too. More radical by the day, actually. I've spent my entire life suppressing screams of outrage and fury. No wonder I get migraines.....

Oops that was meant to say Sturdy

Just to let you know (even if you don't want to) I have been looking through the links posted and scanning through but I've had an afternoon on the M1 😢

But i should also mention this is my first ever post and I think it was the best place to put it! You're all fantastic women and I'm genuinely excited to get educated

One thing worth knowing Onthebrink87 is that the "radical" in "radical feminist" doesn't mean "extreme" but refers to getting to the roots (from the Latin word "radix") of the problem of the oppression of women. In this case, radical feminists believe that women's biology is used to oppress them in a patriarchal society.

I have to say, this forum is an eye opener. I always thought of myself as a sort of low level "I'm a feminist, shouldn't everyone be" kind of feminist. Now, I'm starting to identify as a gender critical radical feminist.

Op I felt the same originally.

Once you really see it - all of it, porn prostitution, men calling them selves feminists - you can't unsee it.

It's like the matrix. It's also everywhere.

Took a good year or two for me to understand. I'm still learning too.

I also went through an angry phase, an obsessed phase and a despairing phase before it settled.

OP, I can't remember if those links also link to the thread on here from women who are married to transwomen (with AGP).

It's real eye opener. And you will most definitely require alcohol. Link below.

Like many others, I acquired late onset feminism. It's highly contagious. Beware.

And it's quite true, that once you see it and the goggles are off, there is no going back. Ever.

It does make you view people differently. And yes, even strong female friends often don't get it.

Why feminism? Said by friend of mine who has been highly successful in a male dominated profession.

It's really disheartening, because every fibre of your being knows that once you see it, you can't not be feminist.

On the other hand, the fact that so many women's experience is the same, they travel the same path and up here, is incredibly encouraging.

And yes, I too think that it spreads. It's concentrated here, this is the hub. But you will find many women coming out with gender critical things across the entire site.

It's unprecedented for this many women to gather together in the same place and talk.

Go us.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3101834-trans-widows-escape-committee

LastOneDancing

Don't beat yourself up. Recognising the need for feminism and why we do things doesn't mean that you're suddenly not living under a patriarchal system and navigating it, negotiating it as best you can.

I absolutely know the feeling. Because it's all on a spectrum from boob jobs down to leg saving.

Wiser feminists than me take the position that acknowledging something is not a feminist decision doesn't mean you can't make it.

On the other hand, feminism has this sneaky way of changing your mind about things. Something that seems absolutely crucial, sometimes loses momentum and your own investment in it wanes after a while.

Either way, there is enough stuff designed to make women feel guilty without increasing it unnecessarily.

Thank you Datun in many cases I do feel it's enough to do these (patriacal? Non-feminist? Not sure of the term) things like shaving and primping mindfully. Theres no denying that if I stopped wearing make up and feminine clothes my working life would be much harder and my DH would have an issue but I do get frustrated with myself for not being strong enough to say 'fuck the patriarchy!' and throw off my bra. (And then put it back on quickly because that would be very uncomfortable).

But I'm definitely going through the curve that ekphrasis describes. Mainly obsessed and angry that I can't freely discuss it IRL. Here's hoping it settles soon.

I made myself angry listening to R4 this morning - they had a piece dissecting experts. In every example they referred to the fictional expert as 'he'. Insideous.

It really is. And if you mention it, someone will always say, bloody hell, why do you have to pick up on everything.

Which is just proving your point, really.

last I'm out the other side (possibly as I have a newborn!) but I think when you get your head around all of it, it is less anger/ obsession inducing.

Becoming clever with arguments and come backs helps.

I credit Datun with much of my current learning and level headedness about it now!

Datun also stopped my habit of saying "I think..." and just make the statement at the start of some sentences. Another example of female socialisation!

Not so long ago there would be definite "trans ally" constituency telling people off for being "mean" but for some reason it wasn't in that thread. I'm wondering if that might reflect a shift in viewpoint on MN.

I think a lot of women have been actively trying not to see it because they want to e kind and understanding and right on, but in the end it's hard not to see when the internet keeps smacking you in the face with it. Once seen it can't be unseen either - this particular train runs in only one direction.

I've been saying for a while that overreach will be what eventually brings the whole thing down. Women are socialized to be nice, but there's a bloody limit and we've been past that point for a while now.

I'm in agreement with everyone here. I'm still in the throes of anger mixed with bewilderment. Yesterday was bad, reading how many institutions are actually toeing the line, including Amnesty International (read the GRA consultation results in Scotland thread).

I despair. But I do what us women have always done, I've put on my big girl knickers today and I refuse to give up. There will come a point, sometime in the future, where the handmaidens and the wokedudes will come to realise what happened around them whilst they made the appropriate noises and poured themselves a shot of smugness tea.

I hope I'm not too mature by that point to say "I fucking told you so".

My stepmother, the least feminist woman I know, had her peak trans moments recently. The first was reading about the Scottish guidelines for preaching gender to children at school (to which her response was a furious "leave those poor kids alone" and a lot of examples of childhood gender non-conformity being perfectly normal and something kids can generally figure out themselves if they're allowed the space to do so), and the second was seeing a set of toilets where the men's was still the men's and the women's was the women's and all genders. She came back saying "that's a bit sexist isn't it?", and once I said "yes, it is" she just got more and more confident about expressing how outraged she was by the idea that men get to keep their spaces but women have to budge up. This is a woman who I don't think has ever called anything sexist before in her life, but she could see exactly what was going on and the sexism underpinning it.

If she's hitting the limit of her female socialized instinct to budge up and shut up, there will be a whole lot of other women who are too.