Confused, none feminist, feminist

[Onthebrink87]

I've been considering writing this post for a while but petrified to be told I'm stupid and a lost cause - still unsure if I'll be tapping the post button just yet!

I've always quietly considered myself as a feminist as i believe in equality. I also believe most misogynistic men are generally frightened of powerful women and they are made to feel redundant...
However, after lots of time lurking on the feminist threads it's been really eye opening and I feel like a fool! I've always though (and please go easy) people have the right to be who they want to be etc live and let live with regards to all walks of life including trans. Ignorant I may well be (am) and always thought 'some women also identify as men and No one makes a huge fuss' PLEASE understand I'm being honest about my previous stand point and have changed this drastically. I now think to myself often, would a man really ever accept someone as a man if they weren't born as such? And the answer is no it seems. I genuinely don't think I know a single man that truly would. So why is it absolutely fine to completely dilute what a woman IS? What really started to make me feel uncomfortable was the idea of someone like Ian Huntley self IDing and wanting to be put in a female prison. This alone bro vs the dumbest and most ignorant of us realise just how dangerous this whole mess could get.

Now I dont know a thing about correct terminology or anything really. Truly dumb and really green. I want to learn and I want to be part of helping to educate others and make changes. What's stopping me is I honestly fond some strong feminist terrifying and that often scares me away and not want to ask questions enabling me to learn. Is there anywhere that's a good place to start?

I think I'm going to post and I hope I dont regret it 🙈

I'm another one late to the party.

If asked I would have said 'Of course I'm a feminist' without really knowing what I meant by that. Some sort of strong and deeply held conviction that women are equal to men, there should be measures to ensure equality in the workplace blah blah...

I idly clicked on a self ID thread that happened to be in 'Active' a few months ago. I came to FWR, read a few more and the goggles fell off.

The patriarchy, sexism, misogyny. I see it EVERYWHERE now. I can't believe I was so blind. I feel stronger, empowered somehow but also so angry, and yes - a bit obsessed. It's exhausting. And scary. I can tell my DH sees and senses the change and feels very threatened by it. I'm taking up the feminist cudgels on the self ID issue in various ways by signing the petition, writing to my MP etc but don't know how to deal with having this new insight in my marriage.

If she's hitting the limit of her female socialized instinct to budge up and shut up, there will be a whole lot of other women who are too.

Really interesting.

And I like the term 'limit of her female socialisation.'

I'm guessing we all have a different capacity. But, generally, there is a finite capacity.

And I, for one, am more than happy to help women reach it.

I think i may have also blown my mum's mind the other day as well.

It changes things, doesn't it Critical

I genuinely believe that I married one of the good guys. I married a man who grew up with both parents working, really really hard, to provide a very basic life for their kids in the 70s and 80s. We pretty much share most of the household chores. I wouldn't say it's an equal split, as we have different strengths and skills.

In a way, that kind of works against me, as he doesn't understand my need to talk about the whole toxic atmosphere for women at the moment. I have it okay, so why am I worried? He doesn't understand the gut-wrenching fear that women deal with, that jolt of adrenaline when you think someone might be following you home, the impact a sexist comment yelled at you in the street has. He thinks men are affected to, that he's more likely to be thumped in a pub because he's a man. He's possibly right. He's thumped, IN a pub. He's not followed home by a creep who invades your nightmares for weeks on end afterwards, who makes you jump at shadows and who haunts your every social interaction so you scan rooms automatically for the creep. We're both speaking English but we are most definitely not talking the same language.

MP etc but don't know how to deal with having this new insight in my marriage

Yes, that's hard. Patience and a little stealth and duplicity.

When DH and I are watching TV, for instance. I now see all the rape scenes, shower scenes, through the sexist eyes who wrote them.

Why is rape entertaining? Why are women always portrayed in the shower as washing their hair, just so? It's just another variation of media sex.

My way of getting DH to see it was by saying that it's written for men, and what it says the writers think of the men who watch it.

The possibility that he was being manipulated made him look at it a little more critically.

I realise this is just a small thing, and it's not specifically personal to our relationship. But nonetheless, it took a fair amount of effort to get the phrasing right so as not to induce some time wasting namalting or whataboutery.

I know I am known for my patience here. But in real life I want to pick up a club, and smash people over the head, jumping up and down shrieking why don't you get it?

He thinks men are affected to, that he's more likely to be thumped in a pub because he's a man. He's possibly right. He's thumped, IN a pub. He's not followed home by a creep who invades your nightmares for weeks on end afterwards, who makes you jump at shadows and who haunts your every social interaction so you scan rooms automatically for the creep. We're both speaking English but we are most definitely not talking the same language.

This ^^

I don't know if this is a bit trivial, and maybe more experienced feminists might not agree, but I think every man should read How Not To Be a Boy by Robert Webb. It's a really good introduction to male socialisation, toxic masculinty, gender stereotyping, centred around the telling of his life story - especially his relationship with his father, and it's really funny and touching.

Me too sociopathsunited. I believe my DH is one of the good guys - but there are times when I wonder.

I'm pretty sure he 'gets' the fear women feel walking alone at night. But the other day when I mentioned that yes, of course I've been groped and flashed at on public transport, he was clearly shocked. Like it was something he knew went on but didn't happen to the real women he knew. I got the sense he wondered how could I have not mentioned this before. Or how come I wasn't traumatised by it. The incidents were decades ago when I was in my 20s. Of course it had an effect, like most women I didn't make a fuss, just became more wary and modified my behaviour. That socialisation again.

But then when I mentioned a much more scary incident which happened abroad on holiday at about the same time he dismissed it - oh, but that was in Italy...yeah, as if that makes the perpetrator less wrong or the incident less frightening for me.

Thanks Datun. That's really helpful. I know he would hate to think he is being manipulated . I am totally in awe of your thoughtfulness and patience . If I can display a fraction of it, I'll be pleased.

I think I'm going to get that Robert Webb book TransplantsArePlants. I might start by giving it to my DS who I know is a fan of RW.

Thank you all for your replies. There is so much wisdom and support here. Thank you.

Critical

Mine was shocked too by my telling him some of the things that have been said to me. It was a long time ago, but I still remember them. Now I'm 50, I go unnoticed most of the time, and if not, I hope I'm old enough not to give a fuck about "causing a scene". Remember being told that?
"Dont' make a scene"
"Don't make a fuss"
"Keep your head down, don't antagonise them any more"
"Dont' say anything back, it might move from rude comments into him grabbing you and hurting you"

Dont, dont, don't, don't...........

effing bastarding don't.

I have, in the last thirty years, constructed a rather formidable fortification of a perfect dead-eyed stare. They don't have a sodding clue what to do with me.

My DH had a bit of a lightbulb moment a few days ago. He's a very good sort of person and has been quite tolerant of my recent Damascene conversion to RadFem. We were talking about women in sport and how this is affected by transwomen competing. He is very keen on a sport, which he enjoys as an amateur to quite a high standard.
I pointed out that a transwomen could compete within this sport and that even if she wasn't good enough to beat men, she would probably easily outclass exception female athletes (I won't say which sport it is, but it helps to be very strong, very light and have long limbs).
He looked a bit stunned, 'but why would anyone do that?' He says, then thought about it a bit more. Then I pointed out that it is already happening. Why? Because they can and will succeed.
Having these types of conversation, where you are really just talking about facts, has become oddly challenging.
I get that a sporty transperson may wish to be able to compete, and thus to compete alongside 'their' gender but it makes for an unfair competition. It is also totally open to abuse by people who are not trans but see a way to succeed open to them quite legitimately.
Apologies for hijacking the thread a bit there.

Yes, I'm largely invisible too now. I too feel old enough not to care about causing a scene in public. Some days I feel so angry and almost wish I had an excuse to call out some bad male behaviour. Bring it on - you have NO idea what a hornet's nest you just poked.

But on the whole it seems my post menopausal grumpy resting face is enough.

My DH is a man who will knee-jerk react, but he will go away and process and take stuff on board.

We had a conversation about how I was always risk assessing when alone - who's around me, how likely are they to hurt me, where can I escape etc. - and his automatic comment was 'what a sad way to live'.
He genuinely did not even consider that that is how the majority of women live. It was a totally alien concept (how blissful that must be! To walk anywhere, to go for a run without even a flicker of caution!).

A situation arose a few months later which was sort of similar, and this time his comment was 'its interesting how we have different considerations and perspectives on the same situation isn't it?'
I felt such love for him in that moment. Just knowing he'd listened and thought about it, and got it, even just a tiny bit.

But he still doesn't enjoy my feminist discussions and thinks it's all fine now and we're all equal and those poor women in Syria... Etc. He cannot, will not, accept or even consider that our society could be any way, than it already is. It's like asking him to invent a new colour or something. Can't wrap his brain around it.

Beamur

I had a similar conversation with my husband. He's a cyclist, and knows that all female professional cyclists would easily outgun him by a gazillion miles, so he was thinking "what's the problem? I'd still be a loser". But then I asked him to consider - what if one of the Sky team, having become fed up being one of Chris Froome's support team, decided to transition and move into women's cycling? What if Luke Rowe came to realise that he was really Lucy. What chance would a natal woman have, against his physical development and training, against the massive investment male cycling gets compared to female cycling.

I got the blank stare that gradually moved into stunned comprehension and then disbelief that, actually, that could happen, right now, and there's bugger all a woman can do about it.

critical - oh yes, I prepare mentally for arseholes shouting stuff at me when I'm running and almost dare them (mentally) to do so.

A teen recently thought it was a good idea to shout insults at me from his bedroom window. He was so lucky his parents weren't in when I knocked on the door to ask WTF he was doing, and did he know how scary and invasive it was to shout things at women on their own, and was that his intent?
He stayed hidden in his room. Interesting that.

That's a really good approach Beamur. Finding a way of having a 'factual' conversation about a topic the man cares about. How it impacts him basically.

I made the mistake of talking and being outraged about the Girl Guides self ID policy the other day. My DH's response was to nod along for a while but then he got a bit fed up with the ear-bending and became dismissive - along the lines of why would Girl Guide policies be relevant or important to him. I know if he really engaged with it he would be horrified. But it was not personally relevant (and maybe too much of a challenge to accept the awfulness of what the GG are doing) and therefore he didn't really want to hear it.

I need to find the subjects that will press his buttons.

sociopathsunited
Yep. We've talked about this a lot (well, I've talked a lot) but this example actually made sense and hit home.

He cannot, will not, accept or even consider that our society could be any way, than it already is. It's like asking him to invent a new colour or something. Can't wrap his brain around it.

This. ^^

How satisfying to have called out that teen LastOneDancing.

Yes, perhaps I should stop looking for a lightbulb moment with DH.

More of a planting seeds and drip, drip approach.

More of a planting seeds and drip, drip approach.

Personally I think it is a good approach. Firstly it takes the heat off one and the pressure to make people see it.

Secondly, there is no doubt that if someone starts thinking about the small seed, they will convince themselves that their thought process is unique to them and they have come to the conclusion all by themself.

Which will produce a conviction far deeper than the one you could force upon them.

And frustrating tho it is, I am convinced it works.

It's slow, sometimes painfully. But worth it.

Yeah, factual is good. Pretty sure I peak transed my brother the other week (safe spaces and sport). As a generally liberal type, explaining the cotton ceiling to him also helped.

The example from sport was the best way to reach DH. There was a good thread on here the other week, seeking examples.

Annoying that it has to be sport that PTs him. I used an example of Bolt being past it and deciding to enter the women's race. That did it.

For my MP I nicked ideas off here and gave an example of constituents - the mother in the care home, the father complaining because somebody was upskirting his daughter in a changing room (thanks Target).

But then I was so disappointed in him. I showed him the rigged Genderquake debate and I could see him thinking that MB was fairly timid and harmless (like JB was meant to be portrayed on Sky).

So I showed him some of those lovely tweets from shy and retiring TRAs.

When MB kept calling out transphobia - demanding an audience member be removed - it TP him again.

I'm still not entirely convinced he gets it.

Somebody upthread talks about always risk assessing. We do it naturally. I was somewhere this week with a creepy male and just keeping a side eye on him.

This is something only we know. How do you convey this to the opposite sex?

Critical

I could have written your post.

Now I can't unsee it. In films, on TV, media. Everywhere in real life. My marriage